Bwv 540

[Luis Enrique]

What is the "authentic" tempo for Bach´s toccata in F major?. My opinios is that it should be playe in a moderate tempo, so that its melodic lines may be heard clearly, but most of the greatest organists play it in a hurry.

[wljmrbill]

Good way is to check out youtube artist and one can obtain different view poiints. Yes and I agree many organist play Bach faster then could have been played on the insturments of the day,

[dll927]

This brings up something that has long stuck in my "craw". Do presrent-day musicians tend to play music faster than the original composers had in mind? There seems to be evidence that this is true.

It is mentioned above that the instruments of the baroque period were simply not capable of such fast tempi. But I am referring to organs -- I have read that string instuments, for instance, back then were not very good at sustained notes.

But there is a lot of difference between modern organs and those of two hundred years ago, while such is surely not true of, for instance, violins. Otherwise, how could a Stradivarius be of any value now? True enough, many organs that old are still in use, but are they played the way an electric-action organ can be played? I doubt it.

Another thing -- in a large church with a substantial reverberation period, would not fast tempi tend to bring forth a cacaphony of noise without much regard to the 'voices' of the piece? It would seem especially so with baroque music.

My point is, do modern organists lean towards demonstrating their virtuosity rather than playing music as it was originally intended to be played?

[Janne]

Who cares! It is most interesting how today's "musicians" interpreting the music.

[Dorsetmike]

I think there are quite a few who tend to do that but by no means all. The amount of expression they can put into their high speed playing must suffer surely. There have been and still are a few I don't listen to for that reason.

I also tend not to be impressed in videos by the hand waving & head tossing brigade, what are they trying to prove?

[Contratrombone64]

their chiropractors?

[Janne]

I also tend not to be impressed in videos by the hand waving & head tossing brigade, what are they trying to prove?

It was one of the dumbest comments I've heard in a long time. It's about passion for music.
If you "move" is certainly nothing to do with musicality, etc...

Maybe the technical part might be suffering from too much "movement" but that is another matter.


Musicians who have no "movement" at all, is fairly rigid and trained to play in a "right way".
It's therefore the organ world is so boring now, almost every one "believes" that we know how
composers played their own works.

Start playing it as you perceive it, not how others want you to play.

[Dorsetmike]

I'm not objecting to some expressive movement, only the exagerated, flamboyant, overdone gestures, such, as you so rightly say, may cause the technique to suffer.

[Contratrombone64]

One thing is certain, until the invention of the metronome during Beethoven's lifetime. No one knows how fast "fast" was or how slow "slow" was. There is absolutely no point discussing it. It also irks me how fast the "period instrument" movement take Bach.

However - I did read an account of an eyewitness to Johan Sebastians' organ playing and I clearly remember the term "feet flew across the pedals". This would indicate to me he wasn't adverse to speed. He, was a rare example of the ultimate artist, however and NOT the norm.

[Marc]

[....] I agree many organist play Bach faster then could have been played on the insturments of the day.

F.i. Ton Koopman plays mostly on historic organs, and he plays rather fast.

My personal view is: maybe because of the influence of the romantic 19th century lots of tempo choices have slowed down, and during the last 50 years or so, after lots of research, the tempi of pre-romantic music have increased again.

[....] It also irks me how fast the "period instrument" movement take Bach.

That's your personal taste, and I respect that. But to be honest: personally, it irks me how slow the "pre-period instrument movement" were/are used to play Bach.
But mostly the lack of articulation and phrasing is irritiating to me.

To be fair about this statement: not because scholarship proved them wrong, but because I simply don't like this music to be played that slow and spiritless, and with much legato. I first listened to Bach (vocal music mainly) when I was about 12 years old, and I didn't know anything about music history. But I liked Harnoncourt and Leonhardt, and I disliked Von Karajan and Richter. I had the feeling that the latter was inspired by a sewing machine. In general, these experiences haven't changed since then.

About the possibilities of period instruments: almost nobody could believe the metronomic indications of Beethoven. And especially almost nobody believed that they could be achieved on period instruments. They've been proven wrong.

Another example about 'shocking' timing issues: Gustav Mahler, who grew up in the 'romantic' 19th century btw, and whose music is often played rather slowly, wrote in a letter to Nathalie Bauer-Lechner that his 4th symphony would take about 45 minutes to perform. In his own score he indicated: 15, 10, 11 and 8. I haven't heard a conductor who really performed it that fast, although Bruno Walter and Rafael Kubelik come close. Willem Mengelberg, who was praised by Mahler himself many times, played the Adagietto (sehr langsam) of the 5th symphony in less than 8 minutes. Some conductors do it in 13 or 14 minutes. Conclusion?

For the rest, my advice would be: play the tempi that you feel are the most natural and playable for yourself. In the end, I'm not very fond of all those scholastic dogma's, and I also feel that organ music can bear a lot of various interpretations.

But, of course, I do have my preferences.

[Contratrombone64]

Marc, I also remember reading Mahler's comments about his symphonies being played like dirges. I blame Karajan for his total lack of taste when it came to his own interpretations, Christ alone knows how he became so famous? His selfsatisfying, self-indulgent approach has meant that my CD collections (about 2900 CDs) contains only ONE with Karajan and it was a gift from sibling.

[Marc]

Marc, I also remember reading Mahler's comments about his symphonies being played like dirges. I blame Karajan for his total lack of taste when it came to his own interpretations, Christ alone knows how he became so famous? His selfsatisfying, self-indulgent approach has meant that my CD collections (about 2900 CDs) contains only ONE with Karajan and it was a gift from sibling.

About Karajan: well, I still cherish his recording of Strauss' Vier letzte Lieder (with Gundula Janowitz). And I also have a mono recording (EMI) of Beethoven 5 with the Philharmonia Orchestra, and that one is quite electrifying. And then there's a very satisfying recording of Mozart's Le Nozze di Figaro, and of Schönberg's Verklärte Nacht, and ....
Oh dear, what am I doing?

I guess I'm just a guy who's having trouble with generalizing. In general though : Herbie Von Karajan isn't my favourite conductor.

EDIT: to add something more ON-topic: BWV 540 is my favourite Bach Toccata! I heard this one when attending a live concert this year, with Jan Luth playing on the Hinsz-organ in the Petruskerk of Leens, Netherlands. That was sheer delight!

[pcnd5584]

It was one of the dumbest comments I've heard in a long time. It's about passion for music.

I would agree with Dorsetmike. I have become irritated on a number of occasions by some high profile musicians who appear to indulge in unnecessary gestures - Joanna MacGregor playing various of Bach's 'Forty Eight' on UK TV is a prime example.

I once saw a well-known English organist play live on TV from the RFH, London. His arms were flailing around in a most bizarre fashion. He almost looked as if he were changing light bulbs, as opposed to performing a piece of organ music. For the record, his actions added nothing to the music. In fact, I have observed that it is often (but not always) the most demonstrative player whose playing appears to lack appeal and real musicianship. As far as I am concerned, true musicianship should be evident to the auditor - I have no use for arm flapping or head tossing either.

Musicians who have no "movement" at all, is fairly rigid and trained to play in a "right way".
It's therefore the organ world is so boring now, almost every one "believes" that we know how
composers played their own works.

Start playing it as you perceive it, not how others want you to play.

One of the things I teach my pupils is economy of movement. Sir George Thalben-Ball (who was, in his day, a world famous, top calibre concert organist) played the organ 'as if he were a bank manager' - with little or no extraneous movement. Having not only heard him, but also met this great gentleman, I should state that his playing was some of the most musical, vital and technically assured which I have ever heard. Incidentally, he apparently had no trouble whatsoever filling virtually every church and concert hall in which he ever played. Apparently those attending his concerts did not feel deprived in the slightest because he did not thrash around whilst playing the organ.