Reading organ histories it often states that pipes from the original organ and earlier rebuilds have been incorporated, and yet the compass has been extended. Do they make sufficient new pipes to match the originals?
I also see there are in some cases wooden pipes over 150 years old, how long a life is expected of wooden pipes?
Cheers MIKE.
How many roads must a man walk down ... ... before he admits he's lost?
It seems to be fairly common to use older pipes in a re-build, probably as a means of cutting costs. Pipes can be revoiced, and sometimes wind up in a stop of a somewhat different name. As for extending a rank of pipes, that should be no problem for people who know what they're doing.
I can't answer your question about age, but I have heard of pipes collapsing, and it may be that wooden pipes can outlast metal ones under proper conditions.
I remember reading somewhere that one of the 32' ranks in the LDS Conference Center organ was purchased 'used' from another installation.
Regarding extended compasses:
Eastern Organ Pipes, located in the former M. P. Moller factory, can replicate historic pipework if you send them a couple samples from a rank. That said, certainly, they can provide pipes for an expanded compass.
Generally, to save costs, some have found, in some cases, that spare pipes, not necessarily matching the make of the organ in question, can be adequate. That's a practice I would use as an absolute last resort, if I absolutely cannot find anything from the original builder.
As for reeds, many have flue trebles, generally of Diapason type, but these are notes that aren't used that often. Way up in the top octave, there is less variety in pipes, among various stops, as compared to the rest of the compass, where you find pipes that are characteristic of their stops.
For example, take the first 49 notes of the following three 8' stops: Spitz Flute, Koppel Flute, and Chimney Flute. Respectively, you have a tapered resonator; a short, cylindrical resonator with an inverted cone-shaped canister fitted over the top; and the same is done to the Chimney Flute, only it's a cap, hole in its center, with narrow tube soldered over the hole. Notes 50 thru 61 in all three stops, more than likely, would be Spitz Flute pipes. The higher up you go in pitch, the less discernible the tonal qualities will be. Also, certain kinds of pipes can only be made so small.
At Grace Episcopal Church on Broadway, in Greenwich Village, Manhattan, their 1961 Schlicker has failed, which is why Taylor & Boody is building an new instrument. They say about 75% percent of the pipework is either silent or has lost their intended tonal characteristics. This is because the pipes are collapsing or sagging under their own weight.
Pipes are generally made of a tin/lead alloy of various ratios. I believe that antimony was not used in making these particular pipes in order to cut costs, or, if they were made outside the Schlicker Company, something else was used, which was a bad substitute for antimony. A small amount of antimony is, or should be, included in the alloy for stability. I've seen similar situations in 1960s Casavants where full-length reeds were bending. I was told it was European zinc.
I've seen a number of photos of the inside of the Grace Schlicker. One shot shows a set of wooden pipes. They looked fine, so that would illustrate that wooden pipes, if properly cared for, will out-last their metal counterparts. A 48-year-old organ is not the best example of longevity as we look at the comparison between wood and metal pipes, but it's what came to mind and I thought I'd share it.
At Methuen, the famous Walcker/Aeolian-Skinner/(and Great Trumpets from Noack) is an older example. 1 thru 5 of the 32' Principal is wooden and seemed in good shape when I was there about 10 years ago. The remainder, or at least some of the rest, of this rank is about 90% tin and are in the facade and you could see that the largest of these were crumpling at the toe. This stop dates back to 1862.
Wood is fiberous and holds better than a material that is malleable.
Last edited by smilingvox; Jan-12-2010 at 01:59.
Smilingvox:very interesting comments.. thanks
" The essance of reproduction,to feel and re-create that which was felt and impared by the creater,does not exclude- within natural limitations-the assertion of creative power" - Dr. Hugo Goldschmidt.
I wish you the Best for each day, now and always.
Bill
Smilingvox: fascinating, thanks for sharing your wisdom.
Is there anything to the idea that Schlicker organs seem to often get replaced? First-Plymouth in Lincoln, NE had a Schlicker that replaced their original organ, and not terribly long later they replaced the Schlicker with their current Schoenstein.
The 1969 balcony organ at First Cong. LA is Schlicker, or at least originally was (they have added considerably more since then.) So far as I know, that one is still there, and the 32' pipes are a copper color that fits into the church quite nicely.
The relatively new organ in the LDS Conference Center (a.k.a. Hinckley's Palace) is a Schoenstein also, or at least they built it. It's supposed to be (slightly) smaller than the one in the Tabernacle, but just give them time.
The organ history I was reading was that of the Wimborne Minster organ which has metal pipework from the original 1664 instrument, wood and metal pipes from subsequent rebuilds in 1764, 1844, 1856, 1867 and 1965, so it seems both wood and metal have lasted well there.
I believe the Schlicker pipework and other equipment is still there. It would be interesting to find out the recent history of the entire instrument, incl. the Skinner and what was added to both. I'd be interested in learning what necessary alterations were made to the chests; what, if anything, was discarded; anything revoiced; etc.Originally Posted by dll927
About the Schoenstein at the LDS Conf. Center, I know they have at least one organ and choral CD, and a Christmas CD, I believe. When will they come out with a solo organ CD that covers non-Christmas material?
Anyways, back to old pipes in rebuilds.... one thing that comes to mind now is one Willis rebuild at St. Paul's, London. At one time, this organ had four 8' Diapasons in the Great. Two of those were from the 17th-century Fr. Smith.
One writer, from way back, relates how he met Willis III, I believe. I think he asked if he could take a look inside, but, whatever he said, Willis responded harshly, "Son, there's a lot of dirty work in that organ." Willis was referring to the old material. Was a long time ago when I read this.
At least most of the Diapason chorus in the Dome Organ came out of another older instrument. I believe I found this in S. Bicknell's The History of the English Organ. Beautiful book! If you're a fan of the British organ, you want to find a copy.
Last edited by smilingvox; Jan-14-2010 at 02:54.
The Schlicker consoles were replaced with new consoles by Hagerstown along with a Solid State Logic digital action. After I finished the Northridge quake damage repairs, I spent a few weeks tuning the whole thing. I was told that was the first time the whole thing was tuned since the Schlickers went in. Along the way I fixed many collapsed pipes, mostly in the back Schlicker. Usually it was sagging blocks, not many toes. Schlickers are cone tuned, so there is always the risk of foot collapse just from bashing the tops every tuning. The little Schlicker Italian continuo was in perfect condition.
As far as the additions go. At the time of the Schlicker install, Hermann made a pass though the Skinner. He did some revoicing. Some of that has been reversed. This Skinner is not typical; it's milder and has some unusual soft ranks. So the additions to it were choice Skinner ranks that are considered to be the classic ranks that were not originally included. The Schlickers are in their original state, the chests and pipework were not altered.
Thanks, Mush. I guess I shouldn't be surprised about damaged pipework in the big 1st Cong. Schlicker. Yep, cone tuning will do it, and the Grace Episc. really isn't that much older than 1st Cong.'s.
10 years ago, I looked around inside the Schlicker at Trinity Church in Buffalo. This one is from 1954. Besides the fact that I took pics, there was no lighting for me to see any similar damage. But a question gnaws at me.... What were the practices like in the mid-50s at 1530 Military Rd.? Did they skimp on alloys then, too?
I haven't been to First Cong. for a number of years now, since I no longer live in the L.A. area. But my guess is that some of the additions since the Schlicker have gone into what once were the balconies in the crossing part of the church. (In fact the Schlicker itself went up into what was originally the rear balcony.)
If that was the first time the whole thing had been tuned since 1969, well, that thing would take quite a while to tune!!
Apparently there have been some changes in the size of the congregation, or they wouldn't be able to do without all those balconies that were once there. At one time there was a senior minister named James W. Fifield, Jr., and he was somewhat famous for making the church the largest Congregational in the nation. He also turned it into what was known as a citadel of conservative politics. But that was well over forty years ago. Since his time, they have been through quite a roll call of ministers.
But the church remains an architectural monument. It's huge, and approaching on Sixth Street from the east, it's visible for a long distance before getting to it. The street actually sort of bends around the church. Unfortunately, some years ago they built a wrought-iron fence that completely surrounds the church, and it really detracts from photographic depictions. I guess that's a sign of the times -- it's not the safest part of L.A. But it has been there since 1931, and I suppose things have changed. But for a visitor, the church is definitely worth a visit.
When the Schlicker was put in (1969), I had season tickets for their concert series for a couple of years. I was able to hear such stars of the time as Alexander Schreiner, Virgil Fox, Flor Pieters, and a number of others. Their own long-time organist, Lloyd Holzgraf, died about 7 or 8 years ago.
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