composing film music

mireazma

New member
Hello.
I've been wandering all over the internet in search for a place to start composing music for films and video games. I hope I won't make a bad impression by what I'm going to say further. I know I generally have this effect on people, albeit it's my first post and you know how they say about the first impression.
I would really not just want but feel like I must compose music for films (not for a particular film but I mean the genre). And all the tunes that come into my mind are for orchestral music. I'm not a musician, although I know chords progressions, notation, and I've composed songs of different music genres (electronic, metal rock) in a digital way by the means of a software. But from all the genres, orchestral music is, by far, the most expressive and fits my feelings like a glove. And I generally listen to this type of music. I'm not going to make either a fortune or a career out of composing music. In fact I'm programming video games and music is an adjacent passion. If by what I'll say next you'll think of me as a dilettante, others have already told me this in my face. So I'm used to it. I listen very much to Richard Clayderman (I'm very selective with his pieces, though). I know classical musicians hate him but I'm not into classical but only orchestral music. I'd say that contemporary orchestral soundtracks aren't alike the classical pieces at all. Well, this kind of music I wish to compose. Listen to the 'Deer Hunter' soundtrack played by Clayderman - it's like somebody stirs into your soul and it doesn't have many instruments involved. Now to the actual point:
What I want is to compose the aforementioned kind of music with orchestral patches in my PC program. I know it's not the same as a real orchestra but I'm sticking with the mock-ups.
What I know:
- melodic line, that is, the tune, theme.
- chord progressions for the melody.
- the instrument(s) that play(s) the main melodic line.
What I don't know is the generic, most common rules of composing orchestral music. Notice I'm avoiding to say "for the orchestra" for the reason that I don't intend some real people to play the score I write but my program. I did some search on the www and I've heard that one of the hardest parts is just to know the human limitations. I've also learnt that there are no limits in using the instruments hence there are no rules. However, there must be some general rules. This is the reason for learning music, right? I repeat: I'm an amateur so my goals are not too high for the time being. You know that there are high standards and not so high standards. So, please, grant me a chance at least for the low standards shelf.

So, where can I find such a set of guidelines? Very concise, clearly structured basic rules. Like an about 100 pages book. I'd be very happy if the guidelines would refer among aothers to a few issues I wrote below. Or, if I'm not asking too much, and you have the time, can you give me from your experience some advices on any of the following, any at all:

1- how many notes are played simultaneously (say we have a Cmaj7 chord, 4 plus extra doublings)
2- the role of each orchestra section; this actually would say pretty much of all. When to play a section and when not to
3- which sections blend well and which not to mix
4- which instruments are used for accompanying rather than playing the main tune
5- which are used, when accompanying, as sustaining lines and which do the pizzicato, arpeggios or other melodic lines to accompany
6- which use a whole chord (like violins section) and which only the root, third or fifth
7- general practice on different moods; like for a specific reason use strings on C3 rather than on C4 or play the brass below the strings.
I know there's a lot to discuss and wouldn't fit in here or any small compendium but please, I'm asking you - the only people in position to help me - to direct me to a book or to take a moment and write something. Any small rule like a line is welcome.
 

ePostings

New member
Find a school, would be my answer. A college or university school of music. Learn an instrument. Study composition.
 

mireazma

New member
Excuse me but if I have 4-5 domains of interest should I attend 4-5 colleges? I have a job and I'm at an university already; study time is an issue. The best way is to study at my own pase by reading a book, then another. The most difficult step (albeit it's the first to make) is picking the right book. It is here I was hoping you, composers, would lend me a hand. I found "Principles of orchestration" by Nikolay Rimsky-Korsakov but from what I read in reviews "The writing is rather dense and requires time to understand; therefore I would not recommend it to someone for whom composition or arranging is simply a hobby." If noone can think of such a book now, no problem. Please, when it comes into your mind drop it by in this thread and I'll check periodically (with moderators allowance, whom I also ask for help, I'll bump the thread from time to time). I just can't think of another way. This forum is my only hope.
 

franksspace

New member
Laws of Music

Hi mireazma,

Well - Im responding because you seem very passionate about your question.

I dont think its possible to find a book like that one you talk about,
- thats why ePostings says "find a school" I guess.
Music is not like cooking you know, there's no cookbook
- like "101 Delicious Classic Chord Dishes":D

Music is a unique study. And its full of what you could call "magic" -
Sometimes it works - sometimes it doesnt - And its a lifetime study to
figure out when, how and why. There are no completely fixed sets of rules
to music.

Anyway there ARE rules - a bit like the laws of nature I guess.

Well - I´ll try to mail your seven question to a composer in electro acoustic
music with background, education and job in classical and orchestral music
- we'll see if he has time to give a tip...

In the meantime - Ill say just do it. You talked about that it is as if
somebody stirs into your soul in the "Deer Hunter" theme. In my opinion,
thats what its all about! - go stirring:cool:

Good luck ,
franks
 

mireazma

New member
Thank you so much for willingness. I tried but I used only piano and strings and here and there I put a horn :) like I felt it had to sound. But that's lame...
When I listen to orchestral music I try to tell every sound apart but this is one of the most enigmatic sides in music for me. All I can hear is the chord, I recognize it precisely, I can sing every note in it, I know there are like 4 notes but I can't hear each instrument playing the notes. If I could, probably half of the path in composing was walked. I think a little ingredient (nice one that with the chord dishes :) ) is that the orchestra performs in a very acoustic environment, so all the sounds are echoing everywhere, blending seamlessly. I think it has to do with the difference between a silent sound from near and a loud one from far away. The former is clear, crispy, you can even tell its harmonics while the latter is blurred.
Thank you again for your time. To be honest, I'll check the topic more often now :D
 

wljmrbill

Member
May I suggest a practice exercise: using strings...try a composition with:

violin- melody
viola- 3rd
cello - 5th
cello-string bass - root
use any instrument for the 7th,9th etc etc.

This will give you concept of strings....... however any of the instruments can use any part of the chord structure.

Next try: same concept with Brass and then reeds..... then try putting them all together......

IT MIGHT BE BEST TO WRITE A SHORT COMPOSITION WITH PIANO. THEN USE IT INTO ALL THE ABOVE GROUPS: or USE A SHORT COMPOSITION ALREADY WRITTEN.. AND ORCHESTRATE IT (LIKE EVEN A HYMN ). Good Luck !!
 

mireazma

New member
It seems that luck smiles :)
I'll do it first thing in the morning. Now it's late in night.
About brass and reeds, I try to put each section like I did with the strings? Sorry, I want to make sure I got it.
I understand hat there is a lot of variation and originality but I have to start from some place "default".
Man, if it works...
 

wljmrbill

Member
yes.... using the different instruments in that section i.e. brass section and also the reed sections.... this will give you exercise the wirkings of each section of the over all orchestra.
 

franksspace

New member
Hi mireazma.

Haven't heard from my "wise musician" yet... Guess he's busy,
but lets give it a longshot. Maybe he'll respond later...

I was particular interested in your issue on reverberation
- or "acoustic environment" -

Environment - or reverberation is "everything" - its such an important
ingredient in music. You can hardly do without a good reverb processor.

If you use brass samples like from the sample pack "Kick Ass Brass"
(have you ever heard of that one) - and you apply a bit of a great artificial
reverb - you can achieve an amazing realistic result. Only experienced
brass / windwood players would be able to hear the samples if you do it good!

If you want to simulate a classical orchestra you MUST have a good reverb
processor in my opinion.


And here is my advise:

Get an M3000 from t.c.electronic! - as many good things,
it also comes from Denmark:cool: -haha.

Its getting older of cause, but when they made it, they created new
standards in digital space simulation. - I use it in almost every track I make!

The people who made it used computers to map the behaviour of sound in
various environment. This mapping was the main input in the creation of
their very special VSS™3 technology (VSS = Virtual Space Simulation).

Check it all out here:

M3000

Here is a good price


Greetings, hope you can use my words:).
I'll return here if I hear from my friend.

franks
 

mireazma

New member
@wljmrbill:
I haven't get to experiment with what you advised too much; I've tried it in a soft for electronic music without success since I miss the orchestra instruments. It sounded well, though I used generic strings. So I'm after a dedicated orchestra music software. I'm going to a friend to get a book about orchestra instruments. I hope it's good. I'd have asked him for help but he knows the electronic genre only.
@franks:
Thanks again. About the M3000, I don't know... it's too much for me. I don't argue about its quality output but I earn 200$ / month :eek:
I've just got an M-AUDIO 88es keyboard midi controller (saving for like 6 months :D) and it came with Ableton Live lite (no advertising meant). I'm still waiting for news :grin: but I'm afraid not to disturb you or your musician friend (I mean too much, as I've already done it...)
 

franksspace

New member
Hi Mireazma.

It must be OK to disturb - as well as its just as OK to say "no"
as to say "yes" - right?:cool:. Otherwise we wont get anywhere -
or we'll move too slow.

Well I've sent an email to him as I told. And he didnt answer yet.
I only know him through another music forum. I've known him for quite a
while and we've had a lot of music / knowledge exchange. Well - Im certain
he will give some answer, when he gets around to it.

He hasn't been around in the forum since end february it seems. Maybe he's
on tour with the orchestra he plays in - or he's sweating in his studio:cool:
- I'll let you know - when I hear something.

He's the only shot I have for you. Im not making classical music my self,
but I love to listen now and then. I have done no school or education in
music - Im completely autodidact. If you like, you can hear some here:
franksspace
And this might be interesting for film - you can download it all for free
if you sign up:grin: - Listen especially to the "franks-and-free-soundtracks"

Its funny actually that I respond to your thread, as I make music
completely from a feeling or a rhythm - with no fixed rules at all
- I even try to avoid rules sometimes, if they sneak in (but I guess
I have some "hidden" rules inside of me anyways:grin: haha)

As I kindof said in my first post, I like people with passion in what they do,
so thats why I wanna help.

Yeah I know the stuff I advised is very expensive.
I have offered a lot the past 2 years to get an expenssive, but very
precise selecetion of tools. - well 200$:eek: a month is very less.
Where are you from - as I humbly may ask?

Well you do know eBay of cause - I didnt wanna advise a used model in
the first place - but maybe thats a good idea-
This is the M2000 on eBay - extremely low price -
Not as good as the ground-breaking M3000 of cause but its still TC Electronics
Or did you try to search the internet for free reverb plug-ins for your software?.

Greetings,
franks
 

franksspace

New member
Hi mireazma - HERE you go! -

My friend was indeed busy in his studio -
you may hear some of his music underneath in the first quote if you wish.

I havent checked it out yet myself, but Im pretty damn sure there is
something there for you

Hope you can use it!
Hope its affordable! - The first is quite expensive. The next are more
human.


KIBEJA:
Below are some books your friend might find useful, you might too. I do
think he needs to trust his ears first because rules of orchestration can be
restricting. Stravinsky, for example, broke through and transformed what
people had thought of orchestration. Just listen to the opening of "The Rite
of Spring". That bassoon line was breaking rules!

Hope these help,

Chris

http://www.amazon.com/Study-Orchestr.../dp/039397572X

http://www.amazon.com/Computer-Orche...ref=pd_sim_b_1

http://www.amazon.com/Principles-Orc...ef=pd_sim_b_10
__________________
www.kibeja.bandcamp.com
This one is also worth reading -
I finally posted your questions on another forum
This one is from selfdude. He's great. One of the books he mentions is the
same as the last link from KIBEJA, so they agreed on that one so far:
There really are three subjects that you are interested in: Music Theory,
the principles of harmony, and orchestration.
Until you master music theory and harmony, it would be very difficult to get into
orchestration as it is the most complex. The best book IMO on the basics of
orchestration is The Principles of Orchestartion by Rimsky-Korsakov. I also like Henry
Mancini's book Sounds and Scores for the instrumentation side of things. As for theory
and harmony there really isn't a standout just find something at the local library and
start reading, the older and dustier the better.
Finally - last statement from KIBEJA - Very interesting:

Yeah, Selfdude is absolutely right. I was making an assumption that your friend already had an understanding of basic theory. If they don't understand that basic language, then the orchestration books might be over their head as they are rooted in those basic theory principals.

Check with your friend to find out. There are some courses on line that can be used to better ones theory skills.
 
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mireazma

New member
@Franks
Amazing music you have there. All the music is relaxing and I found Franks & Free soundtracks very rich and film-like. I could see landscapes as I was listening :)
"What's Calling Me" is awesome. Then "Lonely Bird"...
Excuse me to ask but you play alone or is anyone else - guitar, voice? I could hear a guitar jamming so I figured it wasn't digital.
What I'd like to hear in my orchestration resembles to some extent the beginning of "Lightballs".
KIBEJA's music is strange and pleasant. The sound is great but I'm sorry to say that yours reaches inside like KIBEJA's can't. Maybe it's about taste which is always subjective :grin:.
I have some basic music knowledge; in fact, I forgot to mention that I've composed for SATBB choir. But classical instruments orchestration is a whole different story.

I'm from Romania where you have to strive to survive :D.

@wljmrbill
I haven't found the time to install any proper soft. Still working (in background :)) on it.
 
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franksspace

New member
Thanks for the feedback on our my music! Its mostly mine. But my brother
is fighting to mix in :Dhahaha:D. He does the vocals almost everywhere. I do most of
the music - But he is in the making of some VERY BEAUTIFUL tracks I can tell you!
They'll show up - Ill keep you updated!

Why on earth didnt I write down credits?? damn - Other people have also
asked, but its first now, that I figure I must write clear credits - somewhere visible.

-I used to think, that everything was just "made by franksspace" I guess.

We use quite a lot of played guitars and bass guitars. F.ex.The first 7 tracks on
FRANKS-AND-FREE1 are all played, with a tiny bit of looping here and there.

Can You use the links to the books - that KIBEJA gave?

People at the other forum wanted to know how much music knowledge you have
- so that they can give you more directed feedback. If you can tell some more than
you already did, it'll be good.

Im just an informant in this show haha:p - Nice to know that you come from Romania btw. - Hope you'll survive:cool:!!!


BTW - THX! for subscribing!:) A welcome email has been sent your way.



Greetings, franks
 

mireazma

New member
About the books, I'm on it. it seems that I can't go around Korsakov and Adler. I was told about them before and I wanted something easier but I'll get them as they are ubiquitous. Maybe I shouldn't avoid professional detailed books. A friend just gave me "Artistic Orchestration" by Alan Belkin, said it was easy. I'll have what to read for the time being, until I get those books.
Regarding my creation, I don't have what to point at, as I did just a couple of pieces digitally and the choir ones are on the scores only. My software doesn't have support for voices/choir. Secondly, I'm just at the beginning so my creations are far from an acceptance from you, real composers :D. And I'm not being modest. The sound is was not meant for pleasing but merely for illustrating what I had in mind, more or less. I think when it comes about electronic music, it does matter to have a good soft (sequencer), generators and samples. That's one of the reasons for I prefer orchestra: "portability" - music doesn't rely on samples and I'm not good or haven't found a proper way to forge a new sound (electronic, not a corresponding instrument), I mean I never could get a sample to sound like I heard it in my head. There's a good while until I'll have a web page like yours or other's but until then if I am to post a link, I'll do it for a direct download so no one could say I'm proud of what I did :eek:. When I'll be close to your current level, then I'll make a page with no worries. Only I have to work a little bit more on them and then I'll upload and post the link here.
 

franksspace

New member
Hi mireazma.
Ok - interesting. I reported back.
- You forgot to say thanks to my friends in the
other forum - for the links. So I did that for you,
considering that you forgot it while complimenting
my music
icon10.gif
.

The book by Alan Belkin looks good at a quick glance.

Its good to read. But let me tell you, that I am 100%
autodidact. I worked on and off with producing music
in my own way in 12 years. Before that I spent some
time just playing - guitar, at home - and a couple of
times drums in a band. Music is all about doing it in my
opinion - When you've done a lot you have something
to build on and then others can support you with their
written knowledge.

But then again Im very curious about life. There are so
many ways to live and do - and still and endless number
of ways to be created.
Its an ever ongoing creative process -
Im sure you'll find the way to do your music, that suits you
perfect - as long as you're active, present and always
urging to be aware of what you are doing:). (Which you
seem to be - so thats a good start:cool:)

Greetings my friend - and good luck!-
I have become very curious now
icon10.gif

So you are very welcome to write me an email
about how its going - when you feel like doing so.
(just respond to the franksspace welcome mail)
or send me a message on this forum.

And of course;) If you know somebody who you think
might like my music - : SPREAD THE MESSAGE:grin::cool:


franks,
 
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