Terminology

Dorsetmike · Mar-14-2010, 13:32

While I've been "playing" with scores in Finalé Notepad and the virtual organ, GrandOrgue, I've noticed that some of the terminology seems to have changed since my early days, just wondering which is correct, or if I'm up against the variations in the English language as spoken on opposite sides of the pond; so which is correct, or is it still a case of where you are/who you're talking with?

So what I'm used to, followed by what I find in Finalé etc.

Bar = measure?

What happened to the breve?

Semi breve - whole note

Minim - half note

Crotchet - quarter note

Quaver - 8th note

Semi quaver - 16th note

etc

Are staves the plural of staff, or should it be staffs

Every piece or work is a song?? (JSB, LvB and others must be turning in their graves!) By my definition a song has a lyric and is generally a pop work, let's face it operatic arias, madrigals, motets and anthems although they have words hardly come to mind when one thinks of songs!

Krummhorn · Mar-14-2010, 14:30

Hi Mike,

I know what you mean ... seems the musical terminology evolves gradually, and like you, what I learned at the university 40 some odd years ago is no longer taught as it pertains to musical terms and/or definitions.

It seems that some words like "crotchet" though, are a derivative of your British heritage.

I have been using the Dolmetsch Online Music Dictionary as a helpful aid to me in these changing times. This online source seems very complete in every way and has become a valuable resource for me.

As for the "song" terminology ... I quite agree with the comment about people turning over in their graves. On our sister forum, Talk Classical (where I also on the admin staff) newbs will often query our members "what is the name of this song?", and it makes some members there furious, including myself.

I don't know where that "song" bit started ... particularly since a song is sung. I for one do not "sung" Bach's organ works

.

Mat · Mar-14-2010, 14:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dorsetmike

So what I'm used to, followed by what I find in Finalé etc.

Bar = measure?

What happened to the breve?

Semi breve - whole note

Minim - half note

Crotchet - quarter note

Quaver - 8th note

Semi quaver - 16th note

etc

From what I (foreigner) was taught, words you're used to are British English and the ones you find in Finale are American English.

Same thing with stave and staff.

Dorsetmike · Mar-14-2010, 15:05

Dolmetsch bookmarked, thanks Lars. As I suspected, you colonials on the left hand side of the pond messing with the Queen's English again ,

my bar is your measure.

Krummhorn · Mar-15-2010, 05:14

Hmm, I thought a bar was a pub in the UK

Dorsetmike · Mar-15-2010, 11:24

We have bars in pubs as in the public bar, where the common herd congregate, the lounge bar, for the toffs; the bar more specifically referring to the serving counter.

Don't get me started on the idiosyncracies of the English language in this thread, I'll do that somewhere else.

J.H.C. · Mar-15-2010, 23:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krummhorn

Hi Mike,
It seems that some words like "crotchet" though, are a derivative of your British heritage.

.

Mike should know he is crotchety

, my house is called Crotchet Cottage,
in nuzeln we use Semi quaver-crotchet etc but put the dots in front of any musician and he will understand

Contratrombone64 · Mar-16-2010, 22:19

nods sagely @ J.H.C.

I just HATE the term song as iTunes and those fu*kwits at Apple computer murdererd its useage. And no, it's not all right to say that this is the evolution of language because the word song has a meaning (words and music together) that is specific as does the term piece (just music).

J.H.C. · Mar-16-2010, 23:03

nods sagely @ Contratrombone64 in agreement

Just goes to show what uneducated idiots there used to be in the music profession look at Mendelssohn's Songs without Words what a Dodo, the mind just boggles

perhaps he couldn't write proper like.

Dorsetmike · Mar-17-2010, 22:19

Just to throw another spanner in the works, I've recently downloaded some scores that include C clefs. A real blast from the past.

Had to do some quick revision on Wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clef

Right fun and games trying to copy paste in Finalé Notepad, the scores were originally written in one of the heavier versions of Finalé so it seems there is some understanding in Notepad, although Notepad can read and play it correctly you can't write C clef staves, hence leger lines all over the place!!

Montefalco · May-23-2010, 09:32

I usually think of measures as being the word for bars in songs.

Another annoying mangling of musical language I encountered in a form of music notation software called musescore. They refer to an anacrusis as a pick-up measure. Despicable!

Contratrombone64 · May-24-2010, 05:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dorsetmike

Just adore your sniggering Mutley ... can hear it exactly as it sounded in my childhood!

Contratrombone64 · May-24-2010, 05:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Montefalco

I usually think of measures as being the word for bars in songs.

Another annoying mangling of musical language I encountered in a form of music notation software called musescore. They refer to an anacrusis as a pick-up measure. Despicable!

Not despicable at all, just another instance of those bloody Yanks making up a new word or phrase when one already existed in UK English ...

Corno Dolce · May-24-2010, 07:03

Mutley strikes again - A suitably pernicious sniggle suitably used for and in *piquant* situations........

Dorsetmike · May-24-2010, 12:17

If you right click Mutley (or any other emoticon) you should get an option to copy it, or its location link.

Mar-14-2010, 13:32	#1 (permalink)
Dorsetmike Rear Admiral Appassionata Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Poole Dorset UK Posts: 1,385 Images: 26	Terminology While I've been "playing" with scores in Finalé Notepad and the virtual organ, GrandOrgue, I've noticed that some of the terminology seems to have changed since my early days, just wondering which is correct, or if I'm up against the variations in the English language as spoken on opposite sides of the pond; so which is correct, or is it still a case of where you are/who you're talking with? So what I'm used to, followed by what I find in Finalé etc. Bar = measure? What happened to the breve? Semi breve - whole note Minim - half note Crotchet - quarter note Quaver - 8th note Semi quaver - 16th note etc Are staves the plural of staff, or should it be staffs Every piece or work is a song?? (JSB, LvB and others must be turning in their graves!) By my definition a song has a lyric and is generally a pop work, let's face it operatic arias, madrigals, motets and anthems although they have words hardly come to mind when one thinks of songs! __________________ Cheers MIKE.

Mar-14-2010, 14:30	#2 (permalink)
Krummhorn Administrator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Tucson, Arizona Posts: 5,567 Images: 41	Hi Mike, I know what you mean ... seems the musical terminology evolves gradually, and like you, what I learned at the university 40 some odd years ago is no longer taught as it pertains to musical terms and/or definitions. It seems that some words like "crotchet" though, are a derivative of your British heritage. I have been using the Dolmetsch Online Music Dictionary as a helpful aid to me in these changing times. This online source seems very complete in every way and has become a valuable resource for me. As for the "song" terminology ... I quite agree with the comment about people turning over in their graves. On our sister forum, Talk Classical (where I also on the admin staff) newbs will often query our members "what is the name of this song?", and it makes some members there furious, including myself. I don't know where that "song" bit started ... particularly since a song is sung. I for one do not "sung" Bach's organ works . __________________ Kh ~~. Admiral of the Pipes & Ranks Amateur musicians practice until they get it right ... Professional musicians practice until they can't get it wrong ...

Mar-15-2010, 11:24	#6 (permalink)
Dorsetmike Rear Admiral Appassionata Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Poole Dorset UK Posts: 1,385 Images: 26	We have bars in pubs as in the public bar, where the common herd congregate, the lounge bar, for the toffs; the bar more specifically referring to the serving counter. Don't get me started on the idiosyncracies of the English language in this thread, I'll do that somewhere else. __________________ Cheers MIKE.

Mar-16-2010, 22:19	#8 (permalink)
Contratrombone64 Vice Admiral Virtuoso Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 4,340 Images: 1	nods sagely @ J.H.C. I just HATE the term song as iTunes and those fu*kwits at Apple computer murdererd its useage. And no, it's not all right to say that this is the evolution of language because the word song has a meaning (words and music together) that is specific as does the term piece (just music). __________________ I'm not an atheist and I don't think I can call myself a pantheist. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many different languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God. —Albert Einstein.

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Mar-14-2010, 15:05	#4 (permalink)
Dorsetmike Rear Admiral Appassionata Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Poole Dorset UK Posts: 1,385 Images: 26	Dolmetsch bookmarked, thanks Lars. As I suspected, you colonials on the left hand side of the pond messing with the Queen's English again , my bar is your measure.

Mar-15-2010, 05:14	#5 (permalink)
Krummhorn Administrator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Tucson, Arizona Posts: 5,567 Images: 41	Hmm, I thought a bar was a pub in the UK

Mar-16-2010, 23:03	#9 (permalink)
J.H.C. Commodore con Forza Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Nu Zeln Posts: 602	nods sagely @ Contratrombone64 in agreement Just goes to show what uneducated idiots there used to be in the music profession look at Mendelssohn's Songs without Words what a Dodo, the mind just boggles perhaps he couldn't write proper like.

Mar-17-2010, 22:19	#10 (permalink)
Dorsetmike Rear Admiral Appassionata Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Poole Dorset UK Posts: 1,385 Images: 26	Just to throw another spanner in the works, I've recently downloaded some scores that include C clefs. A real blast from the past. Had to do some quick revision on Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clef Right fun and games trying to copy paste in Finalé Notepad, the scores were originally written in one of the heavier versions of Finalé so it seems there is some understanding in Notepad, although Notepad can read and play it correctly you can't write C clef staves, hence leger lines all over the place!!

May-23-2010, 09:32	#11 (permalink)
Montefalco Captain of Water Music Join Date: May 2010 Location: Australia Posts: 276	I usually think of measures as being the word for bars in songs. Another annoying mangling of musical language I encountered in a form of music notation software called musescore. They refer to an anacrusis as a pick-up measure. Despicable!

May-24-2010, 07:03	#14 (permalink)
Corno Dolce Admiral Maestoso Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 7,372 Images: 9	Mutley strikes again - A suitably pernicious sniggle suitably used for and in piquant situations........

May-24-2010, 12:17	#15 (permalink)
Dorsetmike Rear Admiral Appassionata Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Poole Dorset UK Posts: 1,385 Images: 26	If you right click Mutley (or any other emoticon) you should get an option to copy it, or its location link.