Wavosaur problem

[Dorsetmike]

Hi, I've just been adding some stops to the SM extended set, some were only 56 note, one was only 44, the pedal ones were also short at 24 or 25; so I downloaded Wavosaur and proceded to use the pitch shift tool to generate additional notes, some of the "new" notes continue sounding after the key is released (sounds as though the .wav file continues for its full length after the note has released)

Wavosaur shows the loop start and end markers, some notes also show M0 and M1 markers (whatever they are)

Anyone had similar problems, or know of a cure?

[Ghekorg7]

Hallo Mike ! I'm back in Athens for the next 24 hours or so.
I downloaded wavosaur too and I tried to make a perfect loop to a flugelhorn wave as an exercice, before I go for organ stops.
The loop start and end points doesn't seem to obay my orders...
I'll do some more tests from tomorow on and I get back to you soon
cheers
Panos

[Dorsetmike]

I found a Wavosaur forum, so I've registered and asked the question there, Will report any solutions they give.

[Dorsetmike]

I spent some time yesterday examining the .wav files that I applied pitch shift to with Wavosaur; I found that Wavosaur adds it's own ID towards the end of the files, and also modifies some of the data at beginning and end of the files.

Does anybody know where in the file to find whatever data refers to terminating the file when a Midi Note off command is received.

Comparisons of file starts and ends, I've tried changing some of the values to match the original files but so far not hit upon a solution, some changes cause a crash on loading the set; any (constructive) suggestions welcome

Beginning of an unaltered file;

Yellow > Text common to both files

Pink > data which is constant in unaltered files in a set but changes in altered files

52 49 46 46 04 31 0d 00 57 41 56 45 66 6d 74 20 RIFF WAVEfmt
10 00 00 00 01 00 02 00 44 ac 00 00 10 b1 02 00
04 00 10 00 64 61 74 61 68 30 0d 00 02 00 02 00 data
fe ff 00 00 00 00 02 00 00 00 fe ff 00 00 00 00



Beginning of altered file, the data is different for each altered file


52 49 46 46 fc e3 09 00 57 41 56 45 66 6d 74 20
10 00 00 00 01 00 02 00 44 ac 00 00 10 b1 02 00
04 00 10 00 64 61 74 61 68 e1 09 00 02 00 00 00
03 00 03 00 f9 ff f7 ff 09 00 11 00 03 00 e6 ff


End of unaltered file

00 00 00 00 63 75 65 20 1c 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 cue
02 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 64 61 74 61 00 00 00 00 data
00 00 00 00 a5 29 03 00 73 6d 70 6c 3c 00 00 00 smpl<
00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 93 58 00 00 3c 00 00 00
00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 01 00 00 00
00 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 23 12 02 00
d1 e6 02 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 69 6e 73 74 INST
07 00 00 00 3c 00 00 00 7f 01 7f 00


Added near end of altered file Green> added text, same for all altered files

ff ff 01 00 53 41 55 52 00 02 00 00 31 2c 20 30 SAUR 1, 0
2c 20 35 2c 20 30 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 , 5, 0
00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00

End of altered file; the blue value 98 53 does not occur in all altered files.

00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 73 6d 70 6c smpl
3c 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 93 58 00 00 <
5a 00 00 00 fc ff ff ff 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
51 6d 01 00 61 52 02 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
63 75 65 20 1c 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 02 00 00 00 cue
00 00 00 00 64 61 74 61 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 data
00 00 00 00

[Dorsetmike]

The Wavosaur forum seems to be a bit slow in responding to queries, mine has now been there for 48 hours. 22 views, no replies. I had similar problems a few weeks ago with other product associated forums, no response from Midiyoke forum, one response on Harmony Central with a link to an application that crashed everytime I tried to open it!

I would have thought that forums intended to act as troubleshooting advice for users would be a bit quicker off the mark, even if the product is freeware, 6 weeks is not exactly rapid, I wonder how long Wavosaur will take?

[Ghekorg7]

Hi Mike !
you're right about product related forums, I had and have similar problems too.

This forum, so far, is a bit different, I believe. If you don't get an answer here, maybe there isn't, yet, someone to come with a real help.
Me, for example, I've seen all of your calls here for real help and I can't yet come with something. The above report of yours is a bit difficult to me to understand, even if I was/am a keen programmer of synthesizer/samlper sounds of any kind (I've got my first Minimoog in 1979...).

From 2003 (when I purchased my ES-6) I was working with TWE wave editor (a gift from Yamaha for the ES and for any .wav stuff). With this I made allmost everything, though, when in pitch shifting there's allways not pleasing situations concerning the quality of the sound. Usualy I get (with TWE and ES6 itself) good pitch about two semitones up and four semitones down from the original sample. Above this you get something diferent.
Explain : if for example I have to do a pipe organ sample, lets say an A3, it will sound ok from F3 to B3. Above and below these you get a pipe sound good for electronic music ect and not for real pipe organ work.

Another thing : If the given sample is below A2 , has better reaction to pitch sift, I mean if you got a D2 you can use it for one and a half octave or so. But if you expand it to D4 you get a thinner sound, not pleasing.

When you got a stop that contains MIXTURE STOPs or Celesta/vox humana(chorus like) and/or 2 2/3, 1 1/2, 1 1/3, 1 3/5 ect, its allmost impossible to get a perfect loop because of the rich harmonics these stops produce, unless you got some very expencive stuff (like the ones Hauptwerk and other companies have).
I got some stops I created three years ago like this, from Silbermann, Flentrop and Muller organs, but I now don't use them.

I downloaded too (seeing your posts) Wavosaur and Audacity and still try to learn how they realy work.I always read the manuals. My first responce from wavosaur was not ok (see above)
I also got Viena editor and still evaluate it.

You know, I try to get something for you and it's sure thing I'm gonna learn from this a lot.
I'm waitin' also for Graham to get back(he said he's moving house this week). He's allways a great help here

Greetings
Panos

[Dorsetmike]

My experiences so far; the amount of pitch shifting has mostly been up by about 5 or 6 semitones, 061C#- 057G and 092G# to 096C but also one of a full octave of semitones 047B down to 036C. (Midi note numbers)

I've been working with the Enigma set adding a few stops from Enigma to Stiehr Mockers. Most Enigma stops are 56 notes for manuals 036-C to 091-G, 25 for pedal, 036-C to 060-C , a few are only 44 manual, 048-C to 091-G. The Enigma set will work with GO, but you will have to write your own .organ file. Easiest way would be to add the stops you want, and do some sneaky copy/paste to amend and existing one, and try to remember not to play the top 5 or 6 notes when the stop is in use.

All 4 of these applications are Freeware.

Wavosaur, seems to perform the shift OK but can screw up the loop markers and also give incorrect action on Midi Note off command. Fade outs not affected. On some files it changes data such that they will no longer load into GO. Does not change Midi note number within file.

http://www.wavosaur.com/

Audacity also performs the actual shift OK (when you eventually find the tool!!) but strips off all markers, including loop, truncates Fade out as shift up progresses, but this can be replaced within Audacity. Does not change midi note number within file.

http://audacity.sourceforge.net/

Endless wav, this will apply loops and optimise zero crossing loop start and end. Also has facility to apply correct Midi note number after Wavosaur/Audacity screw it up.

http://www.brothersoft.com/endless-wav-135923.html

Hex Editor Neo this is a bit more complicated, it displays the contents of any file in hexadecimal and where relevant as printable text alongside the hex. It's what I used to get the file extracts I posted yesterday (I added the colour for clarity ..... I hope) You can also edit byte by byte if you feel brave; make very sure you have a copy of the original available so that if something doesn't work you can always go back to square one.

http://www.hhdsoftware.com/Products/...itor-free.html

After all this I'm still having a problem with one stop, the Trompette en Chamade 8', keeps crashing on initial load originally crashed at 037-C#, now at 058-A# which has not been pitch shifted!! The other stops I've done so far all load OK, just the problem of note termination to solve.

Added to the extended SM set so far,

Pedal, Principal 16', Tuba 16' extended from 060-C to 067-G

Great, Bassoon 16', Gedackt 8', Diapason 8', Principal 4' extended from 091-G to 096-C

Positiv, Trompette en Chamade 8' Extended 048-C to 036-C and 091G to 096-C

[Ghekorg7]

My God Mike you went so far !
I still readin' your posts and just downloaded Endless... I hope it works for me too.
There is so much information for me so far, so I have to slow down a bit and see what I can learn from it.
Great help
thanks
Panos

[Dorsetmike]

Well it looks as though the problem is either in the Enigma chamade stop, or the .ORGAN file.

I've replaced the Chamade with a Dulciana (only 8' enigma stop I had extended to 61 notes) this now loads. I'll start a new thread on my changes to the Extended Stiehr Mockers set, keep this one for problems.

[dll927]

Dorsetmike -- if that gibberish you have there is supposed to be musical notation, I need to learn to read music all over again. Yeah, I know, it's computerese, but it sure is a new way of writing music.

Do these electronic "instruments" really sound like organs???? Frankly, I have no interest in them and can't help wondering why anyone does.

I once ran across a website that, in playing Bach's T & F in d minor, had nothing on the screen but graphic bars showing the "sounds" of notes. Sort of interesting, but hardly what one could use to learn to play the piece.

[Ghekorg7]

Hi dll927 !

I agree with you that too much electronic mumbo-jumbo can get a real musician from his path : to practice and improve and perform best, and of course enjoy the perfection of a real instrument(with it's imperfections!). I still practice Bwv565 from my Novello book with Sir Frederic Higgs advice !

But think this, how can I get from Athens here, to Brescia Italy and play my favorite organ at St.Carlo, or in Uk to Salisbury ? And play these organs whenever I want, just as I play my piano at home?
Only with Hauptwek, GrandOrgue ect I can now have access to these fabulus organs and of course give new life to my obsolate EL900 electric organ.

One other thing. As a composer I can write down my stuff imidiately in my sequencer with any instrument/s I want and have a first impression of my work, before I go to my fellow musicians and get them to trouble. Add to this that when I'm ok with the work I've done I can write all the score and individual instr.scores with my trusted Sibelius programm, type them to paper and go on with the rehearsal. All this saves valuable time of real productive music hours.

So, I believe that there's a solution in the midle, as our great greek ancient ancesters used to say, leave the more technical oriented people go deep inside electronics and provide us musical oriented people with little wonders just to help us make beautyfull music for all to enjoy. It doesn't matter the stuff you use (either real acoustic or digital), it's just the music you can send out.

By the way, go to review forum and listen to me ,If you like of course, playin' Buxtehude with digital stuff. Tell me honestly, you will understood there is a digital pipe organ playin' if I didn't tell you so ?

Warm greetings
Ghekorg7

[Dorsetmike]

Sorry about that DLL, it's the "top and tail" of a file for one organ note in a sample set, I'm trying to figure out which bit of the digital additions are causing notes to reamin on for a few seconds after the key is released, and hoping that one of our more digitally clued up members may have a solution.

As for why "play about with them" I would not be able to fit a pipe organ in the house for a start, even if I could afford one or play one, in addition it gives me something to do when these old bones (or the brain that should motivate them) balk at movement.

[Dorsetmike]

After 2 weeks my query on the Wavosaur support forum is still unanswered, even a PM to the site admin 5 days ago has not been answered.

Even with it being free ware, surely a support forum should give support in a timely mannner, like 2 or 3 days, even 5 at a push, but 2 weeks??????????????