Working with sample sets

[Dorsetmike]

As you may have noticed from other threads I have been working ( = playing about with ) extending the Stiehr Mockers set using stops from the Enigma set

I suggest it might be an idea to have a thread for sample set issues separate from the main GrandOrgue thread.

Why do this you may ask, a number of reasons spring to mind, I want to learn more about pipe organs, when I started I knew the names of stops, but could not place a sound to the name; I wanted some additional sounds to those in the SM sets; being retired I have time to experiment; by posting here I masy help somebody else to solve their problem, hopefully the reverse may happen also and some of my problems solved.

One query I have is "how are the draw knobs for stops organised?" Are they grouped into reeds, strings, flutes etc, or by length, or what. it does seem that all stops for a manual are grouped, but within that group............?

When working on individual notes (to change pitch for example) I notice quite a wide variation in volume levels, for some stops I find it difficult to hear some of the higher notes, I know hearing of higher frequencies deteriorates with age, but had not noticed it getting this bad!!

So, how accurate are the relative volumes between and within sets?

[Dorsetmike]

When modifying a set, be it adding, or removing, stops or notes you need to edit the .organ file. I've found it best to do this in Word pad rather than notepad, some of the files can bee a bit long for notepad.

Before changing anything, make a copy of the file you want to change under a new name and work on that, if you try to use "save as" your file will be stuck with the .txt extension and thus wont work, whereas by changing the name beforehand in windows explorer using a copy you can use "save". I'm not sure if there is another way round this, I just know my way is one way which works!

I must at this point thank Graham G for his help in understanding some of the intricacies!

Using pich shift in Wavosaur or Audacity to extend the compass of a stop can screw up loop and other markers I'm still trying to solve this one.

In a few cases it may be possible to "cheat" by borrowing notes from another stop, for example to extend the top end of the Enigma Bassoon 16', I'm contemplating using notes of the oboe 8' from an octave lower, so copying oboe notes 080-G# through 084-C paste into a temp folder, rename as 092-G# through 096-C then copy to the bassoon folder. I've compared the waveforms for bassoon 091G against oboe 079 G and they look identical, they also sound the same to me!

The Enigma stops I've added (so far)

Pedal; Tuba 16' and Principal 16'

GO; Bassoon 16', Trompette en chamade 8', Diapason 8', Dulciana 8', Principal 4', Mix IV, Quint 3, Fifteenth,

Positiv; Gedackt 8', Salicional 8', Mix IV

My screen now looks like this, Width and height both changed in the .organ file to Medium Large, on a 1280 x 1024 screen, also set for 6 columns and 10 rows for stops. another change necessary for the wider screen is the positioning of the Stiehr Mockers name labels, from 355 to 600 (may need a slight further tweak for exact centralisation.)

[Ghekorg7]

Hi Mike !
From my experience usualy there are some stops allways grouped together, in every manual. For example, basic stops for an organ are the 8',4'.2' for GO, 4',2' and/or 2 3/5' for swell/positif, 8',4' for choir, 16' for the pedalboard. The name of the stop is a history in itself - Rohrflute for me is a pan-flute- and the organ started as an instrument that can combine all istruments together played by one person only.
Hammond tried to copy that with his famous electric organ renaming the stops as drawbars and he ended upo with 16'(oct below),5 1/3'(5th down),8'(basic),4'(1 oct up),2 3/5'(5th up from 4'),2'(2oct up),1 3/5'(3rd up 1oct from2'),1 1/3'(third up and 1'(4th oct). These are the basic harmonics and we can do anything with them, just 9 stops.

The same of course was with pipe organs, but the changed the sound by construction of different pipes so they can come up with richer sound colours and lots more stops.
For example there are many different 8' stops everyone sounds diferent from the basic Flute 8'. You can have an 8' stop that sounds like you draw 8'+4', rich in harmonics, so imagine what happens if you add to that a 4' stop that sounds like 4'+2'. Great example some English organs having on GO two 8' stops and a 4' & 2' and in full stop reg they sound like 8'/4'/2 2/3'/2'/1' !

Hammond also tried to copy the pipe's chiff adding the two percussive stops of 2nd & 3rd harmonics, another unique feature of pipe organs. For me the pipe organ is like an instrument with big recorders and pan flutes (very simplified I know). At a time they added the reed stops, from reed instruments clarinet/oboe/bassoon/english horn. The trumpet and tubas they don't sound like ones (brass) in a pipe organ, for me are just more loud reeds. The Bassoon is in the same family with oboe, so that's why sounds the same with your pitch extension.

But one can make a reed stop without one ! I mean you can combine 8'+2 3/5' (Nazard)+1 1/3' and come with an oboe like sound, so for me the flexible organs are those who have these "half" stops so I can mix them to come up with more colours.
I tend not to use much reed stops, following the lessons of Sir Frederik Higgs and Walter Emery, instead using more diapassons.

So why adding more stops if you do not realy need them? See for example the exelent organ of Silbermann in Grossmanhartsdorf, less stops (with a great mixture stop) more clarity, more emotion, more enjoyment !

I have to stop here, I write from Sparta on a borowed link.
Cheers
Panos

[el_supremo]

Mike,
There's a program called pipetune which will tune wav files and I think it retains any loop markers in the output file. It's available free at:
http://www.milandigitalaudio.com/downloads.htm

Pete

[Dorsetmike]

Thanks Pete, that one looks as though I'll need to go back to basics, it's a DOS batch file! Could be a bit of a nostalgia trip!

Just found one that will find and set loops and other markers, may give the trial version a go, the write up looks OK, just hope it does what it says on the tin!

http://samplelooper.pipeloops.com/in...&id=3&Itemid=2

Not free, but not a bank breaker.

[Analogicus]

I've just learnt about a free program for finding and setting loop markers:
EndlWAV available from the writer's website: www.bjoernbojahr.de
That website is in German, but the program is in English.
I've had a try of the program, and it seems to work well.

Mind you, the free soundfont editor Viena (one "n") allows you to find loop markers fairly easily, with a little practice. However, EndlWAV will find the markers for you.

Analogicus

[Dorsetmike]

I found the Soundfont page, which directs one to the Creative Labs site for download, but I can find no download page on the Creative site, I don't have any of their products, so there may be something on their registered pages.

[Ntalikeris666]

Hi Mike !
From my experience usualy there are some stops allways grouped together, in every manual. For example, basic stops for an organ are the 8',4'.2' for GO, 4',2' and/or 2 3/5' for swell/positif, 8',4' for choir, 16' for the pedalboard. The name of the stop is a history in itself - Rohrflute for me is a pan-flute- and the organ started as an instrument that can combine all istruments together played by one person only.
Hammond tried to copy that with his famous electric organ renaming the stops as drawbars and he ended upo with 16'(oct below),5 1/3'(5th down),8'(basic),4'(1 oct up),2 3/5'(5th up from 4'),2'(2oct up),1 3/5'(3rd up 1oct from2'),1 1/3'(third up and 1'(4th oct). These are the basic harmonics and we can do anything with them, just 9 stops.

The same of course was with pipe organs, but the changed the sound by construction of different pipes so they can come up with richer sound colours and lots more stops.
For example there are many different 8' stops everyone sounds diferent from the basic Flute 8'. You can have an 8' stop that sounds like you draw 8'+4', rich in harmonics, so imagine what happens if you add to that a 4' stop that sounds like 4'+2'. Great example some English organs having on GO two 8' stops and a 4' & 2' and in full stop reg they sound like 8'/4'/2 2/3'/2'/1' !

Hammond also tried to copy the pipe's chiff adding the two percussive stops of 2nd & 3rd harmonics, another unique feature of pipe organs. For me the pipe organ is like an instrument with big recorders and pan flutes (very simplified I know). At a time they added the reed stops, from reed instruments clarinet/oboe/bassoon/english horn. The trumpet and tubas they don't sound like ones (brass) in a pipe organ, for me are just more loud reeds. The Bassoon is in the same family with oboe, so that's why sounds the same with your pitch extension.

But one can make a reed stop without one ! I mean you can combine 8'+2 3/5' (Nazard)+1 1/3' and come with an oboe like sound, so for me the flexible organs are those who have these "half" stops so I can mix them to come up with more colours.
I tend not to use much reed stops, following the lessons of Sir Frederik Higgs and Walter Emery, instead using more diapassons.

So why adding more stops if you do not realy need them? See for example the exelent organ of Silbermann in Grossmanhartsdorf, less stops (with a great mixture stop) more clarity, more emotion, more enjoyment !

I have to stop here, I write from Sparta on a borowed link.
Cheers
Panos

Well Combinations with the Nasard or the Tierce can give a reed like feeling, but only in the UPPER notes. As you descend the notes will start to sound seperate and the reedy charachter will be lost.

[Ghekorg7]

Hi and thanks Nick ! I forgot to add this comment.It sure do that.

But it's a good effect if you want to put this on electronica music. I mean when you play, as you said correctly, in lower oct you can hear a synth-like patch, lets say you play an Am and you hear an Am7/9/flat4th/maj7 and so on. Not for church... but good on other things ..he..he.., and my strong point : not from a synthesizer but from a real acoustic instrument!
That's why (anyway one of my reasons) I love pipe organ. It was, and is, the best additive synthesizer, ever.

Χαίρε !
Panos

[Ghekorg7]

I found the Soundfont page, which directs one to the Creative Labs site for download, but I can find no download page on the Creative site, I don't have any of their products, so there may be something on their registered pages.

Mike, I think I post it somewhere here, I've got Viena. Do you want me to send it to you ?

(With it you can analyse/edid ect a Soundfont in .wav and save it as wav anywhere you like)

Panos

You can find it on SynthFont (player) site (google)