• Welcome to the Pipe Organ Forum! This is a part of the open community Magle International Music Forums focused on pipe organs (also known as "church organs"), organists, organ music and related topics.

    This forum is intended to be a friendly place where technically advanced organists and beginners (or even non-organists) can feel comfortable having discussions and asking questions. We learn by reading and asking questions, and it is hoped that the beginners (or non-organists) will feel free to ask even the simplest questions, and that the more advanced organists will patiently answer these questions. On the other hand, we encourage complex, technical discussions of technique, music, organ-building, etc. The opinions and observations of a diverse group of people from around the world should prove to be interesting and stimulating to all of us.

    As pipe organ discussions can sometimes become lively, it should be pointed out that this is an open forum. Statements made here are the opinion of the poster, and not necessarily that of the forum itself, its administrator, or its moderators.

    In order to post a new topic - or reply to existing ones - you may join and become a member by clicking on Register New User. It's completely free and only requires a working email address (in order to confirm your registration - it will never be given away!). We strive to make this a friendly and informative forum for anyone interested in pipe organs and organ music.

    (Note: If you wish to link to and promote your own website please read this thread first.)

    Many kind regards
    smile.gif

    Frederik Magle
    Administrator

    Krummhorn
    Co-Administrator

Fantasia Bwv542 by a...Ghost!

Ghekorg7 (Ret)

Rear Admiral Appassionata (Ret)
He He.... A shy ghost maybe, dear Margaret.
Why he/she didn't play the fugue ?

JS played 542 for the first time before Reiken himself and he was well prepared to astonish him. The fugue is dificult I know (I'm still in the 1st page when the pedal part of the theme comes in) but I thought nothing's difficult for ghosts !

Panos
 

Contratrombone64

Admiral of Fugues
I love this fantasia myself a lot, it's extremely playable (apart from some finger torturing moments on the second page [you know, that highly chromatic passage]). However, I didn't like this performance at all, sorry.
 

Ghekorg7 (Ret)

Rear Admiral Appassionata (Ret)
Don't be sorry at all CT ! I didn't either!!
It's because ghosts don't have much time to practice it seems....

One of the reasons I started this thread was to discuss a little about 542 and we, to have a little fun with this video.
Also to talk about Silbermann and his relation with the Grand Master.

As for me I stuck with Wolfgang Stockmeier's performance in 1978...I have it as my basic guide.

Thanks
Panos
 

Contratrombone64

Admiral of Fugues
Hans Fagius (Sweden) and Knud Vad (Denmark) both have recorded this work and Fagius' playing for me at least, is my favourite. However, Helmut Walcha really comes a very close second.
 

Ghekorg7 (Ret)

Rear Admiral Appassionata (Ret)
Thanks Bill, I just returned from the tour....
I confess I LOVE this organ.... I want it (as OrganMatters said ...) in my appartment!!

CT, I never listen to the players you mention, they must be great , but I still have the complete works of JSB in 8+7 vinyl records from Archiv Produktion Collection with the GREAT Walcha.
For me is the greatest of them all.

But for 542 I stuck with Stockmeier -?!! - (maybe I'm gettin'old...) he has the best registration on diapasons on the first contrapuntal theme at the end of the first page after the opening(Fantasia) and plays with extreme feel and absolute tempo for this theme.

Panos
 

Contratrombone64

Admiral of Fugues
Not left field at all, Vierne had a particular fondness for Bach as most virtuoso French organists do ... I mean afterall, organ music without Bach would be very limited indeed.
 

Ghekorg7 (Ret)

Rear Admiral Appassionata (Ret)
Not left field at all, Vierne had a particular fondness for Bach as most virtuoso French organists do ... I mean afterall, organ music without Bach would be very limited indeed.

You're right CT
I 'll tell you what I think.
Before JS there where Frescobaldi, Praetorius, Couperin, Pachelbel, Bohm, Buxtehude.
Great pieces they wrote, some of them very important innovators, but they didn't reach the perfection JS did. He collected all their works together and he went Organ (not only) music beyond imagination, at the same time being inside limits and rules !
Another person that opened new dimentions was, long time forgotten, Antonio Vivaldi. Bach new his works, liked him a lot and took from him many things from the Italian style incorporate them into the more severe North German one. Echo effects, for example, chord progression ect

What to say about JS...One will need hundreds of pages, all together millions....

cheers
Panos

PS.Vierne...French school....Great stuff, another big story to tell...
 

Marc

New member
He He.... A shy ghost maybe, dear Margaret.
Why he/she didn't play the fugue?

Maybe the ghost was really very very shy.
Or maybe the ghost did not believe the Fantasia and Fugue were coupled together originally. Many other non-ghosts would be joining him with that assumption, btw.

Ghekorg7 said:
JS played 542 for the first time before Reiken himself and he was well prepared to astonish him.

Maybe. But there's no objective proof for that, although I myself would like to believe it, too, for it's a nice story anyway. The Fugue has got a theme, closely related to the Dutch folk song Ick ben gegroet, and Reincken was Dutch, too. Bach admired Reincken very much and probably wanted to please the old man.
Another story is that Bach played Reincken's Fantasia on An Wasserflüssen Babylon and then continued with an enormous improvisation on that chorale by himself, which left Reincken stunned.

Strange thing concerning my own preferences: I really think the Fantasia (BWV 542 again) is a great piece and can stand and survive on its own entirely .... yet I really miss that dazzling Fugue if it's not played. So whoever made the coupling (Bach himself, C.P.E. Bach, some other pupil?) receives my thanks for doing so! :)
 

Ghekorg7 (Ret)

Rear Admiral Appassionata (Ret)
Hi Marc !

I totaly agree with you. And of course I believe both stories, as I believe everything Anna Magdalena says in her book !

Playin' the fantasia alone... you give me points here to proceed and play it for my friends here without the fugue (witch I still workin;on and pract).
But as you say corectly, I just can finish without hearing the fugue theme....

Panos
 

Contratrombone64

Admiral of Fugues
Interesting that the fugue in this work was provided (coupled) by one of his sons. I obviously need to read much more about Bach.

J.S. Bach is, for me the most sublime composer EVER.

I'm making it a promise to myself to listen to every recorded Cantata of his and follow the score (both of which I own). I keep finding the most delicious orchestrations in the Cantatas that are simply neglected because there are just too many of them and for whatever reason they are just never listened to!
 

Contratrombone64

Admiral of Fugues
I also remember hearing some music of W.F. Bach (or was that CPE, can't remember) keyboard music and discusing this with a former harpsichordist of the wonderful Australian Chamber Orchestra. The harpsichordists' comment was something along the lines of "Bach's sons were also amazing performers on the keyboard and some of them very fine composers; they had the technical virtuosity and ability to compose complex music much like their father's but withOUT the amazing sense of melody" I have to say I agree with him on that.
 

Ghekorg7 (Ret)

Rear Admiral Appassionata (Ret)
CT you strarted a big serial here.

I agree JSB is the gratest of them all, that's why they call him THE GRAND MASTER.

I got a cd from Erato Records called "The Bach Familly" with Marie Claire Alain playin' works of Sebastian Sons. Hearing this, one can support your thougts of virtuosity ect.
Emanuel was connected to Mozart and Wofgang was a fun of his sonatas/toccatas witch require a very gentle touch with great virtuosity, as he knew all of Sebastian lessons.
One can hear these lessons in Beethoven's music and Scubert's.

Sebastian had to compose every week a cantata for the Sundays Mass in St.Thoma, so there are plenty of them and some still missing today....

Panos
 
Top