widor toe-cot-ah, if you dare

[jgirv]

hi friends,

great forum, though i rarely post... suggestions from the pros are wonderful, and the organ lovers also make fine points that the pros can miss, so thanks!!!

Is there a definitive edition of the W. Toccata? I know the bit about W. adjusting the tempo marking, and that whole thing. It seems as though there are many measures that are inconsistent throughout the piece... makes it tough to know if I'm "learning it wrong"... and would hate to misread such a piece, and have to re-learn it later.

When the A theme comes back in toward the end, it makes sense that the 16th note figure is different than the opening (it rightly matches the pedal tune), but there are other places where I wonder if Widor was in a hurry to get the piece written down, as the pattern can seem not analogous; thoughts?

Also, does everyone play the last page with the LH up that high? Thought I saw a video of a good organist playing it 8va basso...

thanks for helpin' out.... jgirv

[Organ Matters]

Hi!

Here's a meticulous young performer playing it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOyMKVM0tvA
and he's definitive about getting it right . . .

Has he?

Best wishes

David P

[Corno Dolce]

Hi David P.

I prefer the master himself, even though he is 88 when this recording took place:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8vz1...eature=related

[dll927]

There seem to be two schools of thought about that part where the hands cross towards the end. I've seen two or three versions where the organist played the left hand on the choir manual instead of both hands on the Great.

As for different versions, there are stories that Widor continually 'updated' some of his pieces. Dr. John Near, who is organist at a Christian Science College in Illinois, did his doctoral on Widor and has come out with what are supposedly 'definitive' editions of all the organ symphonies. But how definitive is definitive? He supposedly went over all versions with a fine-tooth comb, but he still had to make decisions about what was most legitimate. And Widor wasn't around to help.

Many composers have revised works -- Anton Bruckner is a shining example. One would suppose that the final version from the composer would be the 'definitive' version, but in A.B.'s case, there were even a couple of later editors that went to work on his symphonies. The result is still somewhat confusing as to just what an orchestra plays - I understand even complete different movements show up in some recordings. To each his own, I guess.

BTW, that recording of the 'maitre' himself, seems almost painfully slow, but he was known to complain that many people played it too fast. And as noted, he was 88 years old, so that could have made some differrence. But that's not a bad recording for 1932.

[Ghekorg7]

Hi David P.

I prefer the master himself, even though he is 88 when this recording took place:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8vz1D_L_OE&feature=related

Hi guys !

br. CD the best performance of the toccata is from Widor himself, you're right.

Not only 'cause he's the creator, but as he said, the work must be played with sentiment, not so nonsense fast.

I remember my teacher Vivika Aggelopulu allways telling me not to rush and get the meaning of the piece first deep in my heart, technique comes after that.
Also, she keep telling me that I must play in a tempo that all harmonies must be heard clearly, so the listener can get all the power of the given work.
Especialy she used to stop me running in Bach's works and in French composers works that were more complicated for performance.

Anyway, the master plays the best and he tells us how to play it.
It's like sayin' that (if it was posible to) we listen to J.S.Bach playing one his toccatas and declare that another jung or not organist played it better !

best regards and cheers
Panos

PS. JGIRV I think the Dover edition of Widor's symphony has all the registrations typed with the score and many other articulations ect.
I'll check it on Friday and I'll post here.

[jgirv]

thanks all! ... One way I use to gauge a good tempo is to really, really listen to the LH part, and imagine it being played by good symphony brass... your organ's acoustic environment certainly comes into play. I play a small 16 rank that is at least in a pleasant sounding church... it's due for a replacement/refit very soon, to be done by sebastian gluck of ny...

[Corno Dolce]

Hi dll927,

Excellent point you make in re to Bruckner. I surmise that you are aware that Bruckner himself had the last laugh and this is why I like Bruckner: All the symphonies he wrote, of course, were maligned in the extreme by his detractors and vicious enemies who themselves really knew not how to compose such majesty as Anton. He kept all the originals and right before his *falling asleep* he had given the manuscripts to a certain publisher whose name escapes me at the moment.

So, there are urtext editions of Anton's music without the senseless butchering that tool place during his lifetime.

Br. Panos,

Thanx for sharing about the experience you had with your organ coach - She knew what to look for. I have heard way too many *technique-wizards* whizz through that toccata at warp factor 9 speed which has had the effect of me outright loathing and despising that toccata. It also suffers from having been played at way too many weddings with vastly increased tempi so as to follow the the bridal couple's progress from the altar to the door -JUST makes me want to GAG - AAAAAAAGGGGGGGHHHHHHH

Cheers,

CD

[Contratrombone64]

that recording of the Widor played by Widor is perfect. I can't argue with the great master's tempo as he plays it as he desires it.

[wljmrbill]

I think most play the peice way to fast anyway. NIce to be able to hear the notes and not a smeared mess of sound.

[dll927]

About that Widor recording -- he apparently wasn't too enthusiastic about making recordings. For one thing, he was well up in years, and for another, he probably knew that the 'state of the art' in recording in those days wasn't much to write home about.

I can remember myself that, in the 1950's, when "high fidelity" came along, that was the point at which, all of a sudden, the organ became the yardstick of recording. Then soon after stereo popped up. It seems apparent that, before that, they just couldn't capture all the sounds and 'presence' of the instruments.

It has long been said that speakers are the most important part of a stereo system. Once they had speakers that could reach down into the lowest tones, things took off. So maybe Uncle Charlie had a point.