The largest electronic organ? not sure

[Contratrombone64]

This is impressive, enjoy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kq9VC...eature=related

[wljmrbill]

Very interesting. Sounds pretty good to me and it sure was an investment back then also( if is 20+ years old.)

[pcnd5584]

Very interesting. Sounds pretty good to me and it sure was an investment back then also( if is 20+ years old.)

But then, I clicked on just one or two of the links to the right (Passau and Albi) - both real organs, not toasters.

The result? No contest - to my ears, the Allen does not even manage to sound like other electronic substitutes - much less the real thing.

Just listen to the majesty of real French Bombardes from Albi Cathedral. Yes, it is true that the Allen organ is speaking into an acoutsic which would make a 'phone box sound warm and fluffy - but it is the difference in the sound overall. On the Allen the 'reeds' are flat and dead - just loud. There is no real brightness to the sound.

I once spent about two years as Assistant Organist in a large parish church which had acquired a top-of-the-range electronic substitute by a well-known firm. This church has now re-commissioned its four clavier pipe organ. Trust me - there was no comparison.

For the record, the electronic needed regular maintenance, which would have been expensive without the 'flagship' deal which existed for its natural life.

[dll927]

Largest? Nah -- There's a church in some little burg in West Virginia, of all ungodly states, that has a SIX decker. Yes, you probably need binoculars to see the music rack.

154 speakers and 14,000 feet of cables, How impressive!! 14,000 pipes would blow the thing into Kingdom Come.

Obviously, it's a custom job, which Allen seems to be pretty good at, and I would gather that some of those 154 speakers play separately from others, since at one point you see "antiphonal" above the stops.

By the time they get all those speakers located, it must take up about as much room as a decent pipe organ would. But there's probably a significant difference in cost. Speaking of which, I wonder how much they shelled out for that electronic monster. And how many 32s does it have?

In perusing that church's websites, I gather it's some kind of "mega-church". Why can't they afford a real organ?

[wljmrbill]

dll927 : I am sure one point is the upkeep maintance factor of a large pipe organ was involved in the decision. An Episcopaol church I was head-organist for a number of years had that very issue .. and due to the over all long range cost of maintaining the pipe organ,.. the vestery elected to go with an electronic instrtument which lucky for me was a 3 manual Johannus custom which sounded very good after the installation..... the money had been donated to replace the old organ. Many churches these days have a money inssue to face more than a high quality they may desire as well as the older rich are they ones who donated for fine pipe organs many times...

[Corno Dolce]

Hi dll927,

Aha, you mention the six-manual toaster in Hurricane, West Virginia. It ain't an Allen - The console is built by R.A. Colby in Tennessee and the electronics are from Walker Technical in Pennsylvania - Mega Church? Naah, the organist is/was an organ builder and from what I understand he master-minded a fund-raising campaign for the instrument which got every tom, dick, harry, mary, helen, effie, betsy, and kate involved in the project.

Cheers,

CD

[Contratrombone64]

upkeep and maintenance doesn't even come into consideration when you consider there are functioning pipe organs that have been around 500 years. No electronic instrument would last that long without having to replace the components many times over. This is simply false economy.

[wljmrbill]

maybe so but in this country many a pipe organ installation has gotten beaten out when it comes replacing, repairing or obtaining a new instrument. perhaps because of the lack of a long history of our country verses european areas. I agree as to having to replace commponents in the long haul. Perhaps Lars can add to this discussion due to his work with Allens etc. in this country.

[Krummhorn]

I'll grant you that there are definite annual costs required to properly keep a pipe organ in superb playing condition. Besides the actual cost of the semi-annual tunings, there are, at least in my situation, also the heating/air-conditioning costs to maintain a fairly constant temperature range around the pipework.

One of our selling points with Allen was that there was "no routine maintenance" required ... and that was quite true. On the digitals, there is/was nothing to maintain or adjust on any regular basis. In digital terms it is either a one or a zero ... it works, or it doesn't. Of course, any of the analog components (amps, keying diodes, mechanical switches, etc) can go at any time - it's a nature of any electrical/electronic beast, be it a <shrug> Magnus chord organ or the John Wanamaker instrument.

Since churches in the US are not supported in any form by any government body, they must raise all their working funds (salaries, utilities, supplies, etc) by themselves. Unfortunately, little is left over for the purchase of a fine pipe organ ... hence, they are swayed to the electronic/digital world based solely on dollars and cents. Sad, but true. In my own church, 80% of the cost of the Möller pipe organ was paid for by recycling aluminum cans - we had a campaign called "Cans for Chords". The pastor at the time, Greg Adolf, though the largest pipe should have "Adolf Coors" painted on it ... no, we didn't . The Möller pipe organ was installed in 1979, and we still have the distinct honor of being the only Lutheran church in the region with a 100% pipe organ.

A church I played at years ago had a 5 rank Wicked (Wicks theater organ - horseshoe console, double touch, really wobbly trem, and a weeping Tibia) ... eventually, the organ required monthly maintenance and tuning, a cost the church would have rather not have to deal with. We had proposals from 5 pipe organ manufacturers: Casavant, Reuter, Schantz, Wicks, and Beiber (a regional builder). We also had proposals from 3 electronic firms: Allen, Rodgers and Baldwin. We had no more than $25,000 to spend ... this was in the early 70's mind you. Naturally, I was on the organ committee, along with four others, two of which were set on our buying a Hammond spinet and Leslie speaker cabinets. Lutherans, in the 70's, did not do Leslies ... we were known as God's Frozen Chosen in those days ... no gospel type hymns at all.

After a year of meetings and visiting lots of organ installations, the church committee , by majority vote, three to two, decided to recommend the Allen to the congregation and ask for a vote. As I recall, the contract was signed for $23,000.

At that time, we could have gotten about 13 ranks of pipes ... the Allen gave us 42 ranks, and the ability to have a full Antiphonal, too. So, versatility also comes into play too ... I'm not died-in-the-wool pipes ... I think the digital world in organs has made great strides, and certainly giving Allen a good ride for the money.

[wljmrbill]

^Thanks for your detailed insite Lars.

[Contratrombone64]

One of our selling points with Allen was that there was "no routine maintenance" required ... and that was quite true. On the digitals, there is/was nothing to maintain or adjust on any regular basis.

And, 100 years down the track when the solid state components fail and the manufacturer no longer makes them, then what?

Sorry, I stand by my comment about digital organs, they are NOT zero maintenance.

Example 1: a friend of mine owns a Maiken organ which she purchased in 1982, now the "chip" that operates the preset function is no longer operational and Maiken do not have replacement parts ...

Example 2: St. Peter's Anglican Church, Cremorne, NSW

Quotes were provided by a variety of organ builders, both English and local but all were beyond the financial capabllity of the parish. With much regret the parish purchased a Miller Electronic Organ for 2,950 pounds in June 1960. The pipe organ remained in the church and some years later it was seriously damaged by vandals before any efforts were made to secure it.

During 1976 it became clear that the electronic organ was nearing the end of its life -- in fact, it needed life-support systems to keep it playing.

[Krummhorn]

And, 100 years down the track when the solid state components fail and the manufacturer no longer makes them, then what?

Sorry, I stand by my comment about digital organs, they are NOT zero maintenance.

Allen never claimed "zero maintenance" ... just no "routine maintenance". Not one single electronic part made by any company is going to last forever ... same is true for mechanical parts in a pipe organ. So, I quite agree with you, David, on the aspect of not being zero maintenance.

But, it does bring up a good point about parts availability in future years for these electronic marvels. Afaik, Allen still manufactures their own parts, as they have from day one. Technology changes almost monthly anymore - my PC is now 7 years old, and now considered "ancient".

[Soubasse]

Not one single electronic part made by any company is going to last forever ... same is true for mechanical parts in a pipe organ. So, I quite agree with you, David, on the aspect of not being zero maintenance.

If I could play devil's advocate for a moment. Is it feasible to suggest that a mechanical part is simpler and potentially easier to reverse-engineer than an electronic component or would I be barking up the wrong tree? Particularly given that many electronic/computer/software companies are taking to re-writing codes on chips so that few others can duplicate them as easily. With a mechanical part however, it's somewhat different because it's mechanical. Theoretically, it would be possible to examine a mechanical part in detail to reproduce it's various components (if any). It may take some time of course, but the point is that with a mechanically engineered part, it's easier to copy because the materials are more readily available, even if some things have been machined to certain specifications.

I only mention it because we have a builder here who has recently (and very successfully "restored") a Barker Lever mechanism basically by copying it.

But, it does bring up a good point about parts availability in future years for these electronic marvels. Afaik, Allen still manufactures their own parts, as they have from day one.

And one can't help forseeing a time when that corporation could be bought out by some bigger giant and the "customised" technology done away with.

As much as I greatly admire, enjoy using and appreciate electronic technology for what it is and for what it does, I still marvel much more at the genius behind the "simple" mechanics that make up a pipe organ where the only electricity required is to run the blower and reading lights.

[Krummhorn]

I couldn't agree with you more on your closing sentence, Soubasse. As to buyouts by larger "toaster" corporations, that has already happened for many electronic organ manufacturers ... Allen may be one of the few that remains totally family owned, as it was from its conception by Jerome Markowitz.

I also agree with being able to copy a mechanical part lots quicker than a proprietary electronic gizmo.

[Dorsetmike]

[wishful thinking]So are we agreed that these electronic instruments are just a passing fancy and that parishes will say "hang the expense" and go for pipes.[/wishful thinking]