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    Frederik Magle
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The largest electronic organ? not sure

wljmrbill

Member
Very interesting. Sounds pretty good to me and it sure was an investment back then also( if is 20+ years old.)
 

pcnd5584

New member
Very interesting. Sounds pretty good to me and it sure was an investment back then also( if is 20+ years old.)

But then, I clicked on just one or two of the links to the right (Passau and Albi) - both real organs, not toasters.

The result? No contest - to my ears, the Allen does not even manage to sound like other electronic substitutes - much less the real thing.

Just listen to the majesty of real French Bombardes from Albi Cathedral. Yes, it is true that the Allen organ is speaking into an acoutsic which would make a 'phone box sound warm and fluffy - but it is the difference in the sound overall. On the Allen the 'reeds' are flat and dead - just loud. There is no real brightness to the sound.

I once spent about two years as Assistant Organist in a large parish church which had acquired a top-of-the-range electronic substitute by a well-known firm. This church has now re-commissioned its four clavier pipe organ. Trust me - there was no comparison.

For the record, the electronic needed regular maintenance, which would have been expensive without the 'flagship' deal which existed for its natural life.
 

dll927

New member
Largest? Nah -- There's a church in some little burg in West Virginia, of all ungodly states, that has a SIX decker. Yes, you probably need binoculars to see the music rack.

154 speakers and 14,000 feet of cables, How impressive!! 14,000 pipes would blow the thing into Kingdom Come.

Obviously, it's a custom job, which Allen seems to be pretty good at, and I would gather that some of those 154 speakers play separately from others, since at one point you see "antiphonal" above the stops.

By the time they get all those speakers located, it must take up about as much room as a decent pipe organ would. But there's probably a significant difference in cost. Speaking of which, I wonder how much they shelled out for that electronic monster. And how many 32s does it have?

In perusing that church's websites, I gather it's some kind of "mega-church". Why can't they afford a real organ?
 
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wljmrbill

Member
dll927 : I am sure one point is the upkeep maintance factor of a large pipe organ was involved in the decision. An Episcopaol church I was head-organist for a number of years had that very issue .. and due to the over all long range cost of maintaining the pipe organ,.. the vestery elected to go with an electronic instrtument which lucky for me was a 3 manual Johannus custom which sounded very good after the installation..... the money had been donated to replace the old organ. Many churches these days have a money inssue to face more than a high quality they may desire as well as the older rich are they ones who donated for fine pipe organs many times...
 

Corno Dolce

Admiral Honkenwheezenpooferspieler
Hi dll927,

Aha, you mention the six-manual toaster in Hurricane, West Virginia. It ain't an Allen - The console is built by R.A. Colby in Tennessee and the electronics are from Walker Technical in Pennsylvania - Mega Church? Naah, the organist is/was an organ builder and from what I understand he master-minded a fund-raising campaign for the instrument which got every tom, dick, harry, mary, helen, effie, betsy, and kate involved in the project.

Cheers,

CD :tiphat::tiphat::tiphat:
 

Contratrombone64

Admiral of Fugues
upkeep and maintenance doesn't even come into consideration when you consider there are functioning pipe organs that have been around 500 years. No electronic instrument would last that long without having to replace the components many times over. This is simply false economy.
 

wljmrbill

Member
maybe so but in this country many a pipe organ installation has gotten beaten out when it comes replacing, repairing or obtaining a new instrument. perhaps because of the lack of a long history of our country verses european areas. I agree as to having to replace commponents in the long haul. Perhaps Lars can add to this discussion due to his work with Allens etc. in this country.
 

Krummhorn

Administrator
Staff member
ADMINISTRATOR
I'll grant you that there are definite annual costs required to properly keep a pipe organ in superb playing condition. Besides the actual cost of the semi-annual tunings, there are, at least in my situation, also the heating/air-conditioning costs to maintain a fairly constant temperature range around the pipework.

One of our selling points with Allen was that there was "no routine maintenance" required ... and that was quite true. On the digitals, there is/was nothing to maintain or adjust on any regular basis. In digital terms it is either a one or a zero ... it works, or it doesn't. Of course, any of the analog components (amps, keying diodes, mechanical switches, etc) can go at any time - it's a nature of any electrical/electronic beast, be it a <shrug> Magnus chord organ or the John Wanamaker instrument.

Since churches in the US are not supported in any form by any government body, they must raise all their working funds (salaries, utilities, supplies, etc) by themselves. Unfortunately, little is left over for the purchase of a fine pipe organ ... hence, they are swayed to the electronic/digital world based solely on dollars and cents. Sad, but true. In my own church, 80% of the cost of the Möller pipe organ was paid for by recycling aluminum cans - we had a campaign called "Cans for Chords". The pastor at the time, Greg Adolf, though the largest pipe should have "Adolf Coors" painted on it ... no, we didn't :lol:. The Möller pipe organ was installed in 1979, and we still have the distinct honor of being the only Lutheran church in the region with a 100% pipe organ.

A church I played at years ago had a 5 rank Wicked (Wicks theater organ - horseshoe console, double touch, really wobbly trem, and a weeping Tibia) ... eventually, the organ required monthly maintenance and tuning, a cost the church would have rather not have to deal with. We had proposals from 5 pipe organ manufacturers: Casavant, Reuter, Schantz, Wicks, and Beiber (a regional builder). We also had proposals from 3 electronic firms: Allen, Rodgers and Baldwin. We had no more than $25,000 to spend ... this was in the early 70's mind you. Naturally, I was on the organ committee, along with four others, two of which were set on our buying a Hammond spinet and Leslie speaker cabinets. Lutherans, in the 70's, did not do Leslies ... we were known as God's Frozen Chosen in those days ... no gospel type hymns at all. :shake:

After a year of meetings and visiting lots of organ installations, the church committee , by majority vote, three to two, decided to recommend the Allen to the congregation and ask for a vote. As I recall, the contract was signed for $23,000.

At that time, we could have gotten about 13 ranks of pipes ... the Allen gave us 42 ranks, and the ability to have a full Antiphonal, too. So, versatility also comes into play too ... I'm not died-in-the-wool pipes ... I think the digital world in organs has made great strides, and certainly giving Allen a good ride for the money.
 

Contratrombone64

Admiral of Fugues
One of our selling points with Allen was that there was "no routine maintenance" required ... and that was quite true. On the digitals, there is/was nothing to maintain or adjust on any regular basis.

And, 100 years down the track when the solid state components fail and the manufacturer no longer makes them, then what?

Sorry, I stand by my comment about digital organs, they are NOT zero maintenance.

Example 1: a friend of mine owns a Maiken organ which she purchased in 1982, now the "chip" that operates the preset function is no longer operational and Maiken do not have replacement parts ...

Example 2: St. Peter's Anglican Church, Cremorne, NSW

Quotes were provided by a variety of organ builders, both English and local but all were beyond the financial capabllity of the parish. With much regret the parish purchased a Miller Electronic Organ for 2,950 pounds in June 1960. The pipe organ remained in the church and some years later it was seriously damaged by vandals before any efforts were made to secure it.

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]During 1976 it became clear that the electronic organ was nearing the end of its life -- in fact, it needed life-support systems to keep it playing. [/FONT]
 
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Krummhorn

Administrator
Staff member
ADMINISTRATOR
And, 100 years down the track when the solid state components fail and the manufacturer no longer makes them, then what?

Sorry, I stand by my comment about digital organs, they are NOT zero maintenance.

Allen never claimed "zero maintenance" ... just no "routine maintenance". Not one single electronic part made by any company is going to last forever ... same is true for mechanical parts in a pipe organ. So, I quite agree with you, David, on the aspect of not being zero maintenance.

But, it does bring up a good point about parts availability in future years for these electronic marvels. Afaik, Allen still manufactures their own parts, as they have from day one. Technology changes almost monthly anymore - my PC is now 7 years old, and now considered "ancient".
 

Soubasse

New member
Not one single electronic part made by any company is going to last forever ... same is true for mechanical parts in a pipe organ. So, I quite agree with you, David, on the aspect of not being zero maintenance.

If I could play devil's advocate for a moment. Is it feasible to suggest that a mechanical part is simpler and potentially easier to reverse-engineer than an electronic component or would I be barking up the wrong tree? Particularly given that many electronic/computer/software companies are taking to re-writing codes on chips so that few others can duplicate them as easily. With a mechanical part however, it's somewhat different because it's mechanical. Theoretically, it would be possible to examine a mechanical part in detail to reproduce it's various components (if any). It may take some time of course, but the point is that with a mechanically engineered part, it's easier to copy because the materials are more readily available, even if some things have been machined to certain specifications.

I only mention it because we have a builder here who has recently (and very successfully "restored") a Barker Lever mechanism basically by copying it.

But, it does bring up a good point about parts availability in future years for these electronic marvels. Afaik, Allen still manufactures their own parts, as they have from day one.

And one can't help forseeing a time when that corporation could be bought out by some bigger giant and the "customised" technology done away with.

As much as I greatly admire, enjoy using and appreciate electronic technology for what it is and for what it does, I still marvel much more at the genius behind the "simple" mechanics that make up a pipe organ where the only electricity required is to run the blower and reading lights.
 

Krummhorn

Administrator
Staff member
ADMINISTRATOR
I couldn't agree with you more on your closing sentence, Soubasse. As to buyouts by larger "toaster" corporations, that has already happened for many electronic organ manufacturers ... Allen may be one of the few that remains totally family owned, as it was from its conception by Jerome Markowitz.

I also agree with being able to copy a mechanical part lots quicker than a proprietary electronic gizmo.
 

Dorsetmike

Member
[wishful thinking]So are we agreed that these electronic instruments are just a passing fancy and that parishes will say "hang the expense" and go for pipes.[/wishful thinking]
 

dll927

New member
Of course, don't forget that any number of pipe organ manufacturers, some once quite prominent, have gone down the drain. Remember Moller or Aeolian-Skinner? Where are they now??
 

Corno Dolce

Admiral Honkenwheezenpooferspieler
Apropos disappearing organbuilders...America has some really crack organbuilders like Schoenstein, Fisk, and Lively-Fulcher. I recall the hue and cry from European organbuilders when Fisk nabbed the contract for the Lausanne Cathedral Organ Project...It is an extremely prestigious project in the heart of Europe.

Now, getting back on topic...I perceive that the really big problem is that the organ is not part of the whole church building project...'Tis but a quaint after-thought...To be purchased like an appliance, preferably wholesale...No!!! The organ must be a part of the building as a whole, integrated into the acoustic space and aesthetic design of the churchbuilding.
 

Krummhorn

Administrator
Staff member
ADMINISTRATOR
Of course, don't forget that any number of pipe organ manufacturers, some once quite prominent, have gone down the drain. Remember Moller or Aeolian-Skinner? Where are they now??

Quite true ... however, Möller's demise was not from and any lack of business.
The 'investors' who bought the company from the Möller family squandered the money for their personal use - never re-invested a dime back into the company, and as a result eventually went under. T'was a shame too ... Möller was for many years thought to be the Cadillac of American organs.

Fortunately, for both Möller and A-S, there are reputable builders who do greatly respect both of those names, and when rebuilding try to keep as much of the original and working design as possible. There are also butchers in the business, sad to day.
 

Contratrombone64

Admiral of Fugues
As much as I greatly admire, enjoy using and appreciate electronic technology for what it is and for what it does, I still marvel much more at the genius behind the "simple" mechanics that make up a pipe organ where the only electricity required is to run the blower and reading lights.

Soubasse - I wholeheartedly agree as the organ that I am extremely priviledged to be able to use pretty much as often as I want (Pymble Ladies' College chapel T.C Lewis) is exactly as you say: the only electricity used is to fill the lungs and help the occulars.

This organ has been around for more than 100 years, and the pipe work is still in first rate order. Obviously there have been replacements made over the years of mechanical aids and parts, primarily felt in the keyboard, leather (faux leather) in the bellows and pieces of this and that, but essentially the maintenance is very, very low per year. The most expensive part of the upkeep for our Chapel organ is the tuning. Being in Australia, as you painfully know, there is no airconditioning in most churches/chapels so the reeds DO suffer during the change to from spring to summer and autumn to winter.
 

Organ Matters

New member
Hi!

My concert instrument comes near and the trumpets make more of an impact -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fe_eJ60PmtM (1:30 for some dark trumpets)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9usBggyS5Nk (4:59 & 9.50) for some wicked French Trumpets. This instrument comes to life over others because it is not a commercial instrument and on account of my special speaker designs.

But uncurated? No. Before any serious recital I have to go through the instrument and make sure that all aspects are working. Corrodable contacts on a set of octave couplers, due to be replaced by gold wires, one and then another channel of a subsidiary PA amp for a pedal channel and the Choir Tuba, a special exotic speaker for the Moucherel Reeds, the Hohl Flute on the Choir which goes on holiday from time to time, and now for the second or third time a reed switch on the pedal board causing a pedal note to disappear. So really when you have an instrument of complexity, it needs maintenance, even if electronic. So no real competition for a permanent pipe organ installation.

Best wishes

David P
 
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