Organ Music of J.S. Bach - General thread

[Ghekorg7]

Bach and tempo are NOT definable, there for the simple reason that the metronome wasn't invented until the time of Beethoven (who championed it for good reason).

In my experience tempo decisions made when performing Bach is a matter of acoustics and hall size, reverberation and so forth. The dryer the acoustic the quicker you can play his fugues (for example) without making them sound muddy.

Trust me, Bach was NOT opposed to playing quickly and there are testaments to that affect from contemporary sources, including a famous when where his feet are described as "flying across the pedals..."

Hi again CT!
The fact that metronome was not invented doesn't mean that there wasn't tempo when music was played and/or conducted !

Acoustics, certainly, play a major role when we have to decide our tempo, but with smart registration you can play slower some 5voice fugues in a dryer acoustic environment to good effect ! On the other hand Fantasia and Fugue in Am 561 must be played fast, to deliver a certain impact and emotion. (please do not tell me this is not Bach's work....)

This thing about playin' Bach slower was injected to me since my youth by my teachers and believe me they knew some stuff pretty well

Bach's "flying feet" is maybe an overreaction of some contemporaries and maybe they were telling the truth.
The basic thing is , as Mark says, our own inner individual METPON (in Greek please ) to approach a certain work and how our final choice affects the audience, to achieve the golden cut resoult.

Sure we'll discuss more on that
Cheers
Panos

[Contratrombone64]

Bach's "flying feet" is maybe an overreaction of some contemporaries and maybe they were telling the truth. Panos

Not an over-reation at all, rather a contemporary, documented statement of fact ...

[Marc]

[....]
The basic thing is, as Mark says, our own inner individual METPON (in Greek please ) to approach a certain work and how our final choice affects the audience, to achieve the golden cut resoult.
Panos

Hey Panoz, I'll write METPON if you will call me MarC!

About Bach's own tempi in organ works: I'm quite convinced that Bach loved to show off from time to time, with (for his time) freakin' combinations of stops and extreme fast tempi, just to show the power of the instrument and his own playing skills (which I believe were quite extraordinary, I'm with CT in this one).
But I guess it's also harder work on many baroque organs to play very fast, compared to modern ones.

For the rest: it's all about instruments, acoustics, skills and .... METPON!
Instruments, acoustics and skills are variables IMO .... and so is my personal METPON.

(Which means I can enjoy many different approaches, which is a bad thing for my wallett.)

[Corno Dolce]

Hi Marc,

Many profound thanx for your including these great clips to the delight of organ fans, aficionados, and artists.

Cheers,

CD

[Ghekorg7]

Hey Panoz, I'll write METPON if you will call me MarC!

About Bach's own tempi in organ works: I'm quite convinced that Bach loved to show off from time to time, with (for his time) freakin' combinations of stops and extreme fast tempi, just to show the power of the instrument and his own playing skills (which I believe were quite extraordinary, I'm with CT in this one).
But I guess it's also harder work on many baroque organs to play very fast, compared to modern ones.

For the rest: it's all about instruments, acoustics, skills and .... METPON!
Instruments, acoustics and skills are variables IMO .... and so is my personal METPON.

(Which means I can enjoy many different approaches, which is a bad thing for my wallett.)

Hey hey hey.....

Hi Marc, Hi CT, Hi all and Hi again br CD, I missed our discussions here, welcome back!

I'm realy sorry Marc for that "k" I didn't mean any harm, just writin' late at night and typed in a rush.
The....Greek letter....just something to drag your interest in our letters

By your replyin' (Marc&CT) one can assume that I'm questioning Grand Master's abilities, talents, technique and the rest!!!!
Not so my friends.

I just proposed my point of view on how certain works of him have to be performed, in order to reach the golden cut between the performer and the audience in our times, based on things we have learn from our older teachers.

Nobody can be sure and convinced on how Bach played exactly, or how fast or slow or witch stops he mixed. There are few exeptions where himself wrote down his registrations e.g Bwv596 Vivaldi's Dm concert witch are rather simple and othertimes the just wrote Oberwerk/Positiv, Organo Pleno ect

So in my view I believe we must concentrate on the inner spiritual meaning of his works and not so much in technical stuff.
To make a fast passage in 64 notes it's easy, to get that chill in the spine or the tears in the eyes with some half note voices and smooth bass..it's hard enough.

Take fugue 578 in Gm. Beautiful melody, exeptional contrapunctal harmonisation and hard times for the feet. Most fellow organists play it at about 90 to 100 BPM. Good show.
But, try it in about 80BPM or at the extreme 74to78 and you've got something else. Everything sounds with a certain mystical meaning and acceptence of the pact between God and mankind, the cut between Heaven and Earth.

So, as I told you my friend Marc, this is gonna be a long thread....

Double Cheers

[Marc]

I just proposed my point of view on how certain works of him have to be performed, in order to reach the golden cut between the performer and the audience in our times, based on things we have learn from our older teachers.
[....]
Take fugue 578 in Gm. Beautiful melody, exeptional contrapunctal harmonisation and hard times for the feet. Most fellow organists play it at about 90 to 100 BPM. Good show.
But, try it in about 80BPM or at the extreme 74to78 and you've got something else. Everything sounds with a certain mystical meaning and acceptence of the pact between God and mankind, the cut between Heaven and Earth.

Yes, certain works indeed.
Take Prelude & Fugue in E-minor BWV 533. I don't mind if the Prelude is played in a more slow and 'grave' way .... but in this performance I feel it's a bit exaggerated (organist: André Isoir). I like the mainly organo pleno throughout though .... and of course the 1750 Gabler 4-manual at Weingarten Abbey, Germany!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JyFP-s_ZQc

If interpretation is concerned, I f.i. prefer this one (Marie-Claire Alain). The straightforward playing of the Fugue brings me in a flush of excitement.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qVP95mZm-4

[Marc]

Koopman's first recording of the Trio Sonatas (DG/Archiv) is indeed a fine disc!
He's well balanced between enjoyment in the outer movements, and a meditative mood in some of the slow parts.
I will certainly play this one more often .... which will make me a very busy man , because I also like the readings of f.i. Simon Preston (DG), Bine Katrine Bryndorf (Classico) and Marie-Claire Alain (Erato; on the Schnitger/Van Oeckelen organ of the Der Aa Kerk in Groningen, NL) very much. Alas, the latter two are (AFAIK) officially OOP.

[Ghekorg7]

Hi Marc !
I'm glad you like it as I do and you know, I come to listen to this recording very often within a month. The work is very mature and enjoyable and Ton did a very good work to present it.

Cheers
Panos

[mathetes1963]

What does everyone here think of M-C Alain's most recent integral Bach, or of James' Kibbie's?
I picked up the Alain set on a torrent site awhile back, and generally like it very much. She plays a number of Silbermann and Schnitger instruments, and for the most part I like her approach (though sometimes a bit too "free" in the Toccatas/Preludes & Fugues for my taste).The complete set is OOP, but individual volumes (or most of them) seem to be available at more or less reasonable prices on Amazon; probably try to the pick up the actual CD's when finances permit. The Kibbie set, on historic organs in Germany, is available as a free download, but I frankly find it a mixed bag.
Thoughts, anyone?

[Marc]

What does everyone here think of M-C Alain's most recent integral Bach, or of James' Kibbie's?
I picked up the Alain set on a torrent site awhile back, and generally like it very much. She plays a number of Silbermann and Schnitger instruments, and for the most part I like her approach (though sometimes a bit too "free" in the Toccatas/Preludes & Fugues for my taste).The complete set is OOP, but individual volumes (or most of them) seem to be available at more or less reasonable prices on Amazon; probably try to the pick up the actual CD's when finances permit. The Kibbie set, on historic organs in Germany, is available as a free download, but I frankly find it a mixed bag.
Thoughts, anyone?

I have the Trio Sonatas disc of Alain's third (!) integral, and I like it very much. But maybe that's also because I'm somehow in love with the Schnitger organ of the Der Aa Kerk in Groningen (NL).

I also have a sampler of this Alain integral (issued last year or so) and I think it's quite good. Nevertheless, my feeling is that in general Alain is less impressive and more aloof compared to her second integral, which is still available. This second set was played on neo-baroque/classical organs. This also goes for her first integral which was recorded in the sixties, but alas has never been reissued on cd.

The Kibbie download is a great initiative, and in most cases I like Kibbie's no nonsense approach. The sound quality is good, IMO, and I do not mind about the variety of the instruments. In this way, it makes me think a little of the CPO integral by Gerhard Weinberger: some large organs, some small organs, some spatial recordings, some close miking. Yes, this makes for a mixed bag indeed, but it's nice to get to know these vintage beauties .... for FREE!
A very short thread about this subject can be found here:
http://www.magle.dk/music-forums/840...lays-bach.html

Btw, here are some performances on the Schnitger organ of the Groningen Der Aa Kerk, issued in 1990 by Lindenberg Books & Music. They went bankrupt in 2008 and now their productions are all officially OOP.

Bernard Winsemius (1945) plays Prelude & Fugue in A-minor BWV 569
http://www.mediafire.com/?d4t2quylmju

Stef Tuinstra (1954) plays Chorale O Lamm Gottes, unschuldig (I think this is a keyboard setting of BWV 401)
http://www.mediafire.com/?y1mwj5yzomd

Winsemius: Trio Sonata in E-minor BWV 528
http://www.mediafire.com/?jdyynlztajn

Winsemius: Chorale Partita Christ, der du bist der helle Tag BWV 766
http://www.mediafire.com/?ozd31zymomu

Tuinstra: Prelude & Fugue in D-minor BWV 539
http://www.mediafire.com/?2kfkqzoow1g

Enjoy!

[wljmrbill]

I enjoy the great sound of the instrument and well performed too. Thanks

[mathetes1963]

Thanks Marc! Downloading now...
Yeah, I really admire the idea behind the Kibbie set, It is a very noble undertaking to offer these gratis!

Dare I mention Daniel Chorzempa or Karl Richter? Here are two *radically* different readings of the "Dorian" Toccata & Fugue, Chorzempa on Hinsz/Kampen, Richter at Silbermann/Freiberg. These are my two favorite interpretations of this work, and I like each for entirely different reasons.

Chorzempa:
Toccata
Fugue

Richter:
Toccata
Fugue

I have the Trio Sonatas disc of Alain's third (!) integral, and I like it very much. But maybe that's also because I'm somehow in love with the Schnitger organ of the Der Aa Kerk in Groningen (NL).

I also have a sampler of this Alain integral (issued last year or so) and I think it's quite good. Nevertheless, my feeling is that in general Alain is less impressive and more aloof compared to her second integral, which is still available. This second set was played on neo-baroque/classical organs. This also goes for her first integral which was recorded in the sixties, but alas has never been reissued on cd.

The Kibbie download is a great initiative, and in most cases I like Kibbie's no nonsense approach. The sound quality is good, IMO, and I do not mind about the variety of the instruments. In this way, it makes me think a little of the CPO integral by Gerhard Weinberger: some large organs, some small organs, some spatial recordings, some close miking. Yes, this makes for a mixed bag indeed, but it's nice to get to know these vintage beauties .... for FREE!
A very short thread about this subject can be found here:
http://www.magle.dk/music-forums/8407-james-kibbie-plays-bach.html

Btw, here are some performances on the Schnitger organ of the Groningen Der Aa Kerk, issued in 1990 by Lindenberg Books & Music. They went bankrupt in 2008 and now their productions are all officially OOP.

Bernard Winsemius (1945) plays Prelude & Fugue in A-minor BWV 569
http://www.mediafire.com/?d4t2quylmju

Stef Tuinstra (1954) plays Chorale O Lamm Gottes, unschuldig (I think this is a keyboard setting of BWV 401)
http://www.mediafire.com/?y1mwj5yzomd

Winsemius: Trio Sonata in E-minor BWV 528
http://www.mediafire.com/?jdyynlztajn

Winsemius: Chorale Partita Christ, der du bist der helle Tag BWV 766
http://www.mediafire.com/?ozd31zymomu

Tuinstra: Prelude & Fugue in D-minor BWV 539
http://www.mediafire.com/?2kfkqzoow1g

Enjoy!

[Ghekorg7]

What does everyone here think of M-C Alain's most recent integral Bach, or of James' Kibbie's?
I picked up the Alain set on a torrent site awhile back, and generally like it very much. She plays a number of Silbermann and Schnitger instruments, and for the most part I like her approach (though sometimes a bit too "free" in the Toccatas/Preludes & Fugues for my taste).The complete set is OOP, but individual volumes (or most of them) seem to be available at more or less reasonable prices on Amazon; probably try to the pick up the actual CD's when finances permit. The Kibbie set, on historic organs in Germany, is available as a free download, but I frankly find it a mixed bag.
Thoughts, anyone?

A good one here Mathetes 1963.

My taste goes with Alain. I like her very much, though she's best more on romantic works and French composers than German school. I like her ERATO recordings (seventies), I got many of them and still one can find these CDs in a regular CD shop in the center of Athens, no web at all, just a walk, shoping and coffee
Her sometimes free approach in Bach's and not only, works, I believe is her trademark, her personality.

My favorite organs are Silbermanns, Schnitgers, Flentrops and some Italian early 1600 ~ 1650 organs. For my taste these represent the essence of the instrument and are the perfect terrain to play Bach.
Of course who is to dispute the great quality and presence of a massive Cavaille-Coll......?

"Dorian" is one of my favorite works. Richter is good. But I prefere H.Walcha (Aalkmar/Strassburg 1958~1969 LPs), Helmut Winter (close mikes on Silbermann), Wolfgang Stockmeier (full works up to 1978) and... Ton Koopman (Archiv recs).
I almost allways play the toccata when I open my organ set, the fugue...I still workin'on to control it...


Marc, thanks for your links, I really start to enjoy this thread ! Now I must find something good in return !

Cheers
Panos

[Marc]

[....]
Dare I mention Daniel Chorzempa or Karl Richter? Here are two *radically* different readings of the "Dorian" Toccata & Fugue, Chorzempa on Hinsz/Kampen, Richter at Silbermann/Freiberg. These are my two favorite interpretations of this work, and I like each for entirely different reasons.

The Richter links lead me to a young Polish organist and to Aarnoud de Groen, a Dutch organist, who btw also offers some free mp3's at his own website:

http://www.aarnouddegroen.com/indexEn.htm

I have both Chorzempa & Richter on disc, and I definitely prefer the American. Richter isn't my favourite Bach interpreter, I'm not really fond of his sewing machine style (though I like Singer ). OTOH, I tend to be more 'forgiving' if organ music is concerned and therefore I seem to be more open to all kinds of different approaches.
I listend to Richter this morning on disc and didn't get overly enthousiastic about the Toccata, but I liked the Fugue. Then came the famous Chorale Wachet auf, ruft uns die Stimme BWV 645, and I got bored again very quickly.

Daniel Chorzempa is OK in my book, although I think I prefer his earlier recordings (less static). Like this recording (Bach & Liszt), recently reissued on Hybrid SACD, where he plays the Flentrop organ of the Grote Kerk in Breda, NL:



http://www.amazon.com/Organ-Works-Ba...dp/B0009KBMLM/

[....]
Marc, thanks for your links, I really start to enjoy this thread! Now I must find something good in return!

You're welcome. My pleasure.
Plz, don't feel too obliged, though.
I myself try to be cautious with uploading, and restrict myself to recordings which (AFAIK) are officially OOP (although some of them might be found at Marketplace or eBay-like sites), or performances which are issued by small Dutch labels and therefore very difficult to get if one's living abroad.

[mathetes1963]

Sorry guys! I can't access Youtube @ work, so I posted the links "blind" so to speak. HERE is the Karl Richter BWV 538:
Toccata
Fugue

I'm sure the "purists" are gnashing their teeth, but I love this interpretation...such passion!

@Panos: I agree, the old European organs (and American ones prior to WW2) are the best. Hope to hear a Cavaille'-Coll up close & personal one of these days...
@Marc: I don't like all of Richter's playing, but there's just something about his reading of the "Dorian" that really moves me. Call me weird.