Organ Music of J.S. Bach - General thread

[Marc]

Hi all!

I've been thinking about creating this thread for a while, because I couldn't find a general thread about Bach's organ music. If I did a bad searching job, then moderators are of course welcome to merge this one with an already existing thread.

It's supposed to be a thread where every little thing about Bach's organ music is 'allowed'. To me personally, it might be a chance to read, chat and share opinions about the greatness of these compositions, and the preferences of organists who perform them.

But be my guest and come up with anything about this great music. Technical stuff, listening stuff, well-experienced topics or questions by beginners. It would be nice to learn from each other.

I will start the thread with four soundclips of Dutch organist Piet Wiersma (1946-2003). He was a popular figure in the northern regions of the Netherlands and started with a Bach integral at the end of the 20th century, all works to be played on historic organs in the province of Groningen: Bach in Groningen. This initiative was supported by a.o. the Foundation Groningen Orgelland and several companies. Unfortunately Wiersma died unexpectedly, only hours after completing the recordings for Volume 7. The unfinished series is now officially OOP, although some Volumes are still (rarely) available on the net and in some Dutch music/book shops.

I like Wiersma's recordings very much. I would discribe 'his' Bach as spiritually patient.

Here are the clips. Wiersma is playing the Schnitger/Hinsz/Freytag organ of the Village Church in Noordbroek.



Prelude & Fugue in A-minor BWV 551:
http://www.mediafire.com/?odn3jmqky2z
Chorale arrangement Herr Jesu Christ, dich zu uns wend' BWV 709:
http://www.mediafire.com/?jzwnytjjxwo
Chorale arrangement Liebster Jesu, wir sind hier BWV 731:
http://www.mediafire.com/?0zvmmnwonng
Prelude & Fugue in G-minor BWV 535:
http://www.mediafire.com/?0ynkyjynikh

[dll927]

Don't play these. They're a hacker. I immediately got a message saying the computer was being attacked.

[Marc]

Don't play these. They're a hacker. I immediately got a message saying the computer was being attacked.

I uploaded them myself. I'm for sure not a hacker myself, I have a good anti-virus programme including firewall, and mediafire has got quite a good reputation, too. I (just now) downloaded and scanned them myself without problems, and I also offered the links to other people who had no problems either. Maybe you'd like to check your own security system?

I really feel bad and puzzled about this. No offense meant, dear dll927, please don't get me wrong; it's a good thing to warn other members! But this is not a nice start for a new thread at all.

[Krummhorn]

Don't play these. They're a hacker. I immediately got a message saying the computer was being attacked.

Could it possibly be your security settings with your browser are set too high? That message is probably a "canned message" or "default message" that pops into play due to security settings.

Whenever members have difficulty downloading or viewing files like these, please notify one of the forum staff members so that we can investigate the issue.

I uploaded them myself. I'm for sure not a hacker myself, I have a good anti-virus programme including firewall, and mediafire has got quite a good reputation, too. I (just now) downloaded and scanned them myself without problems, and I also offered the links to other people who had no problems either. Maybe you'd like to check your own security system?

I really feel bad and puzzled about this. No offense meant, dear dll927, please don't get me wrong; it's a good thing to warn other members! But this is not a nice start for a new thread at all.

I was able to freely download all 4 files without any problems .. in fact playing one of the files now whilst writing this reply

Beautiful organ and wonderful registrations ... thanks for these links, Marc

[wljmrbill]

I did not have any problems either.. very good sound tracks.

[Marc]

Thanks for the good news!

After a night sleep, I realized that my own security system also sometimes gives a warning before downloading, especially if it's organized with its most 'severe' settings. After such a warning, the program kinda leaves the choice to myself. It's always a good thing though to scan the file after downloading.

[Krummhorn]

You're welcome, Marc.

[Ghekorg7]

Hi dear Mark !
We meet again after 542 topics . No problem for me, maybe dll had set to high his protection system.... Great performances, realy and a shame we lost a great organist so soon.

Anyway. I think this thread 's gonna be a long one and I'm very happy you choose to start it, after 542 thread it spinned in my mind but I didn't make a decision.

You know I'm a grand master's addict or maniac if you like, so I have to give you something from Holland to continue.

How about Ton Coopman ? I got a lot of his recordings(on Bach) , but not his complete package, it costs 163 euros in Athens...
His 1983 rec in Archive of of the six Trio Sonatas I believe is one of the best, although H.Walcha's in 1962/63 in Alkmaar organ comes very close...

I found an example link
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWxQNuJ4FG0

Of course there are many other great performances of these sonatas (my next favorites are M.C.Alain's and W.Stockmeier's), but Koopman for me goes beyond...
The work is beautiful, melodical, mature and needs high technique on independence of just 3 parts and is a work that almost any serious organist have to "travel inside" to graduate....

This is for now, thanks for the start of this thread and I hope that many will follow.
Tripple Cheers
Panos

[wljmrbill]

Found this interesting transcripton of Bach's - "Vivace" Trio Sonata No. 6 in G major with organ and guitar ( John Williams- Guitar and Peter Hurford on organ ). It is really very nice and I can almost hear it being played in a castle under candlelight in ancient days.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNgKMGbYA2Y

[Ghekorg7]

Hi Bill !

A very good and interesting view and indeed perfect for a night in a medieval castle !
A perfect collaboration of two great musicians, Hurfords registration is exactly as needed to improve the guitar's solo.
I also went to hear their "Wachet Auf...". Another beautiful transcription.

All this leads me to say that Bach's music is for everyone and not only for experts (as the majority of people here in Greece believes) and the expertiese needed for the performers to choose right and make a perfect transcription of a given theme, like these.
cheers
Panos

[Marc]

It is really very nice and I can almost hear it being played in a castle under candlelight in ancient days.

Ancient?
Seventies probably ....

Can I get there by candlelight?

[Marc]

Hi dear Mark !
We meet again after 542 topics . No problem for me, maybe dll had set to high his protection system.... Great performances, realy and a shame we lost a great organist so soon.

Anyway. I think this thread 's gonna be a long one and I'm very happy you choose to start it, after 542 thread it spinned in my mind but I didn't make a decision.

You know I'm a grand master's addict or maniac if you like, so I have to give you something from Holland to continue.

How about Ton Coopman ? I got a lot of his recordings(on Bach) , but not his complete package, it costs 163 euros in Athens...
His 1983 rec in Archive of of the six Trio Sonatas I believe is one of the best, although H.Walcha's in 1962/63 in Alkmaar organ comes very close...

I found an example link
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWxQNuJ4FG0

Of course there are many other great performances of these sonatas (my next favorites are M.C.Alain's and W.Stockmeier's), but Koopman for me goes beyond...
The work is beautiful, melodical, mature and needs high technique on independence of just 3 parts and is a work that almost any serious organist have to "travel inside" to graduate....

This is for now, thanks for the start of this thread and I hope that many will follow.
Tripple Cheers
Panos

Cheers to you too, Panos!
About Koopman: I like him, but I have to be in the right mood to fully enjoy him. In general, I prefer Koopman in the chorale works. In the free works he's sometimes too 'jolly' with all those trills and adornments.
(You get the picture: I'm a very severe person. )

I haven't heard the particular DG/Archiv recording of the Trio Sonatas yet, but who knows what the future brings. I'm still investigating .... and probably will be doing so all my life.

About purchasing Koopman's box sets .... he actually 'tried' to record a Bach integral three times: Archiv, Novalis and Teldec. Only the latter one has been completed.

Here's a link to the unfinished Novalis set (6 cd box, reissued by Brilliant Classics):
http://www.amazon.de/Oeuvres-pour-Or.../dp/B000059RHV

Here's a link to the integral Teldec set:
http://www.amazon.de/Organ-Works-Com...dp/B001R3YJS8/

So, you can still get it for about € 60 or € 65. Considering the quality and your own preferences, it's a bargain.

[Ghekorg7]

Thanks Mark ! I didn't know that. Of course it's a bargain.
You're right about Koopman's ornaments, he's overeacting sometimes but on triosonatas (1983) he is more easy but also fast.
Contrary to my beliefs - Bach must played slower as to all voices can be understood by the audience - Koopman plays e.g. NoI in a tempo witch can't leave my mind, it gives me a feel that this is the golden cut. I tryed to play it slower, even in Stockmeier's slow tempo and something was not so right !....?
I thing there's allways a golden cut somewhere, ancient Greeks were talkin' about "METPON" in everything...but where is this metron is a philosophical discuss.
I think Bach, who was a book eater at the time, maybe knew something about it, that's why his music is so...perfect, who knows....

Talkin' abou bargains...I saw Wolfgang Stockmeier's complete - two 10 cd each boxes - for 16 euros..... 2006 "Documents" edition (I got the 1978 one in German and I was buing the cd's one by one. anyway...)

To be continued....
Panos

PS Tell me if you can't find Ton's 1983 Archiv rec. I allready have converted to mp3 in my PC, so I can e-mail it to you to enjoy

[Marc]

The METRON theory is interesting indeed, the problem might be that in music appreciation every individual might have his/her own ideal METRON.

In Bach's organ music, I think that Ewald Kooiman comes close to my indivdual METRON.
Alas, his integral for Coronata is OOP.
And he died in 2009, shortly after starting another integral.

In this soundclip Kooiman is playing the Concerto in A-minor, BachWorshipsVivaldi 593, at the Hinsz-organ of the Bovenkerk in Kampen, NL.
http://www.mediafire.com/?25t5jggyymm

About Wolfgang Stockmeier: I have that Membran Documents bargain, and I certainly like his way of playing: yes, he's slower than some others in the Trio Sonatas, but many other works are played rather vividly. In general, he's fluent and OK to me, even though I would prefer less use of legato.
I also like the crispy sound of the neo-baroque Kreienbrink organs.

About the Trio Sonatas by Koopman (DG/Archiv): they're already on their way!
But thanks for your offer! I appreciate that.

[Contratrombone64]

Contrary to my beliefs - Bach must played slower as to all voices can be understood by the audience - Koopman plays e.g. NoI in a tempo witch can't leave my mind, it gives me a feel that this is the golden cut. I tryed to play it slower, even in Stockmeier's slow tempo and something was not so right.

Bach and tempo are NOT definable, there for the simple reason that the metronome wasn't invented until the time of Beethoven (who championed it for good reason).

In my experience tempo decisions made when performing Bach is a matter of acoustics and hall size, reverberation and so forth. The dryer the acoustic the quicker you can play his fugues (for example) without making them sound muddy.

Trust me, Bach was NOT opposed to playing quickly and there are testaments to that affect from contemporary sources, including a famous when where his feet are described as "flying across the pedals..."