Tenor line question

[Bach>Meer]

Dear all

I am still kind of a beginner organist and so have two more questions that I hope you can answer!

Firstly if I change the bass line of a hymn in parts to a bass line that I like - would that distort the tenor line or because the main tune never changes, would the harmony still work?

Lastly how can I improve my left hand - at the moment I am still doubling the left hand with the pedal and whilst the pedals are now not a problem for me - untying the left hand and feet is!

can you help?!

thanks

 

[Ghekorg7 (Ret)]

Dear all

I am still kind of a beginner organist and so have two more questions that I hope you can answer!

Firstly if I change the bass line of a hymn in parts to a bass line that I like - would that distort the tenor line or because the main tune never changes, would the harmony still work?

Lastly how can I improve my left hand - at the moment I am still doubling the left hand with the pedal and whilst the pedals are now not a problem for me - untying the left hand and feet is!

can you help?!

thanks

Hi BM !

Changing the bass line it's ok regarding you know exactly what are you doin' in every step of the piece.
Keep in mind that all Grand Masters did the same thing when expanding - evolving known chorales to masterpieces.....

You must master all aspects of harmonization and orchestration, then registration to get good resoults.
Of course you can experiment and hear it for your self. If you like the resoult go on. if not try again or get some more harmony lessons !:smirk:

A good tip is to use a VPO (like GrandOrgue) and record your experiments, listen and decide and then go for the real thing.

Left hand.
Is left hand. What to do. Practice and then practice again. 8 hours a day

Go for it !
Panos

 

[Krummhorn]

I fully concur with Panos about the bass lines ... I seldom play the hymns as written for all the verses for familiar ones. If we are doing a new hymn, I play it as written for the most part with slight variations.

For the left hand dilemma, try practicing just the left hand and pedal alone for a few verses, then on successive verses add the alto and then the soprano lines. It takes practice to not double the bass line in the manuals.

 

[Contratrombone64]

Left hand and pedal are a challenge to separate ... I used to play hymns (SATB) and did exactly as Lars suggested here. It eventually falls into place, just be patient. Also, work with a metronome and make sure you keep an event tempo, you can gradually increase the speed and keep your pace even. The minute you make a mistake stop and correct it, do not play through it.

my (limited) two tuppence worth

 

[wljmrbill]

Had a :smirk: When I read these post.. Remembering a copuple of my old organ teachers way back when..LOL hymns you played. base with pedal, tenor with left hand and alto and sop sectons with you right hand.. and Heavn help you if you tried something else unless a written arrangement. Thiose were the days.. now of course I play them upside down and backwards so to speak..Sure is not as borinmg as the old traditionial methods.

 

[jvhldb]

........ The minute you make a mistake stop and correct it, do not play through it.

my (limited) two tuppence worth

I only noticed this thread today and found it interesting, because I got a lecture last week, again, about stopping when you make a mistake. My teachers opinion is that if you stop everytime you make a mistake, you get in the habbit of doing it, and if your accompanying a choir or playing in church the last thing you want to do is is stop and fix a mistake. So I'm practicing to play through, over and in spite of mistakes and NEVER TO LOOSE THE BEAT when a mistake happens.:nut:

 

[Ghekorg7 (Ret)]

I only noticed this thread today and found it interesting, because I got a lecture last week, again, about stopping when you make a mistake. My teachers opinion is that if you stop everytime you make a mistake, you get in the habbit of doing it, and if your accompanying a choir or playing in church the last thing you want to do is is stop and fix a mistake. So I'm practicing to play through, over and in spite of mistakes and NEVER TO LOOSE THE BEAT when a mistake happens.:nut:

Hi Johan !
My teacher allways told me not to stop when I play but after finishing, to try to repeat the few bars of mistakes like a loop with different techniques and tempi (if it's 8th notes play it tripplets ect) untill is done. Then play the piece again non stop.:crazy:

Of course in the middle of an ensemble it is criminal to stop and fix. Once tempo started doesn't stop untill the end.

My son now has to convert from one manual to 2man/ped and he encounters the problem of left hand/feet. His teacher gives him some exercices like a polka dance, i.e. play bass one quarter next quarter the relavent chord with the left hand and so on, accelerating tempo with practice.

There are many ways to get to town, but the common one is to PRACTICE intencively and determination, as in all aspects of life.

Greetings
Panos

 

[wljmrbill]

I only noticed this thread today and found it interesting, because I got a lecture last week, again, about stopping when you make a mistake. My teachers opinion is that if you stop everytime you make a mistake, you get in the habbit of doing it, and if your accompanying a choir or playing in church the last thing you want to do is is stop and fix a mistake.

Yes I agree and is why when I learn a piece I practice it in sections.. also not so far back to correct a mistake at which time I practce that area over and over until I feel it is right.Next I go back and play through to next section to learn...before long you have the whole piece learned.

 

[Contratrombone64]

The idea of not stopping to fix a mistake is of course, personal. I can't see the point in not achieving perfection. Sure, when you are performing, never stop and start again ...

 

[Krummhorn]

In practice for a concert, I will always stop to fix a mistake ... if it isn't corrected on the spot, the mistake becomes "learned" and becomes harder to fix later on. After working out the problem, I go back a half dozen or so measures and run it through again.

Often it's not only the notes in one measure contributing to the problem, but the transition from the preceding measure(s) into the problem area and the successive measures after the problematic point.

In all my practice sessions, I employ the exact words that you see below every post of mine. Works quite well.

 

[jvhldb]

Yes I agree and is why when I learn a piece I practice it in sections.. also not so far back to correct a mistake at which time I practce that area over and over until I feel it is right.Next I go back and play through to next section to learn...before long you have the whole piece learned.

My teacher also tought me to work in phrases and to repeat that section until it is right, bu not to stop in the section if a fault is made. She also tought me to start at the end of the music and working my way backwards through the frases. Once a phrase has been mastered I would then play from that point to the end, building up the piece from the back. She says most people start from the beginning, in the middle of the piece you get tired and the end is a rush job.

 

[jvhldb]

......

In all my practice sessions, I employ the exact words that you see below every post of mine. Works quite well.

I noticed the phrase shortly after joining the forum, since that time it's been glued on the music holder of my organ at home, it gives me courage when I battle to master something.

 

[Ghekorg7 (Ret)]

Don't get it wrong...

I noticed the phrase shortly after joining the forum, since that time it's been glued on the music holder of my organ at home, it gives me courage when I battle to master something.

Same thing with me Johan. Krumhorn's words are 100% true and helpfull when in trouble...

greetings
Panos

 

[Krummhorn]

I noticed the phrase shortly after joining the forum, since that time it's been glued on the music holder of my organ at home, it gives me courage when I battle to master something.

Same thing with me Johan. Krumhorn's words are 100% true and helpfull when in trouble...

greetings
Panos

Thanks ... makes me happy to know a simple phrase I came up with years ago works for others than myself.

 

[Contratrombone64]

lars - your phrase is spot on, I agree. And it's encouraging to both fancy musicians and professional ones.

 

[AllanP]

My first organ teacher used the method of stopping to fix a mistake immediately. My present teacher lets me play through and then go back and fix the mistake.

The original method has caused me to panic to fix the mistake immediately. It has taken years to try to break the habit so that I can play a piece completely through without breaks in rhythm where mistakes were made in the past.

I very strongly believe that building the habit of always stopping to fix a mistake makes playing in a smooth flowing manner almost impossible. Of course, when practicing, note where the mistakes were made and play the phrase over and over again to get it right. be sure to stop at a place of your own choosing, not where the mistake was made.

Stopping at a mistake has been the worst habit that I developed early on and has been the worst problem that I have had to overcome.

Allan

 

[Ghekorg7 (Ret)]

Right Allan and hi !

That's exactly I posted before. Loop practice 3or4 bars around the mistake, changing also tempo, keys or note values, is the key after the whole pass of the piece start to end non stop. One have to know and mostly feel the flow of the piece and what it says as a whole and then perform . Stoping and fixing send one to the opposite direction.
That's Vivian, my teacher , gave me to understand and like this I follow her path 'till today, God rest her soul, owing everything I know to her.

Cheers
Panos

 

[AllanP]

I have been using this method today and find that it works very well. I have been backing up one or two bars to the beginning of the phrase and then playing through until the mistake goes away.
Allan