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Questions from a new organist

QFE

New member
On the subject of legato and finger substitution, there is no better way than an hour or two on the piano for every hour on the organ with the right foot well away from the sustain pedal!!

After a monastical session of practice in this manner, I used to satisfy my urge to hear a pedal reed by doing the same pieces with the pedal part played in octaves in the left hand... an double octave lower if I wanted a 32ft :)
 

Contratrombone64

Admiral of Fugues
Buy yourselves a metronome and practice with it.

If the piece your are learning is (for example) 80, start practising it at 60, and bring the tempo up notch by notch until you can play it comfortable at 84 or faster so that 80 is effortless.

Using a metronome is tedious, agreed, but it will force you to play with an even pace. Any rubato needed should only be considered when you are fluent with the piece and can play it error free and with a findering/pedalling that works for you.
 

Stella Maris

New member
Me too, I'm struggling with pedalboard and coordination, as most of the beginners. I had a bad habit to look on my feet while playing. My teacher asked me several times stop doing it, but I simply could not hit the good note without looking. Until he found the words I needed ("stop doing it" did not work) - "You have to trust yourself!" And every time I tried to look at me feet, he reminded it to me. In few lessons it had made the miracles. I still make errors - everybody does - but it's getting much better now.

Other good tip for the pedalboard is to keep the knees together while playing. It seems strange at first, needs some practice, but it is really useful. It gives a good support and helps to calculate the distance between pedals. I sometimes forget it playing easier pieces, but I always use this method to play Bach's complicated and rapid bass-lines. For me, it is the only way to hit good notes. One of my frieds practiced this technique with a sheet of paper between her knees.
 

jvhldb

New member
.....

Other good tip for the pedalboard is to keep the knees together while playing. It seems strange at first, needs some practice, but it is really useful. It gives a good support and helps to calculate the distance between pedals. I sometimes forget it playing easier pieces, but I always use this method to play Bach's complicated and rapid bass-lines. For me, it is the only way to hit good notes. One of my frieds practiced this technique with a sheet of paper between her knees.

I could never get the "knees together" to work for me, I guess I spent to many hours on the chord organ with the right foot permanantly on th expression pedal and the left foot jumping around on the pedals. Fortuantely I don't have a problem getting the right pedal and my teacher tought me to feel for the space between the notes. PS: In Bach's Wachet Auf you jump from the low A to the high A in the pedals, how do you do that with your knees together?:confused:
 

Stella Maris

New member
To Johan: "PS: In Bach's Wachet Auf you jump from the low A to the high A in the pedals, how do you do that with your knees together?:confused: "

I have x-feet, Johan!
(no, its a joke, but maybe after long years of organ-practice I will finish like this :)
in fact, it is possible to jump octaves knees together quite well, another question is which method fits to one person and what not. For octaves, I do not use it neither, but if you take for exemple Bach's BWV 541 Prelude in G, the quickly played bass like in the mesures number 16-17 (si-la-si-sol-la-fa-sol-mi-fa-re-mi-do), I find this type of passages easiers to play knees together.
 

BethWagner

New member
My teacher will always tell me that if something is difficult for me, then I should go back to the point where it is easy. If you're having a hard time keeping your knees together, you may just want to try some simple pedal exersizes that focus on "knees together". Granted, your knees won't be together at all times. I think the point of keeping them together as a general rule is so that you can quickly find your place when playing multiple notes. As always, it takes practice and dedication!
 

Krummhorn

Administrator
Staff member
ADMINISTRATOR
When I began organ lessons, my teacher also wanted me to do the knees together thing, too ... this was the Harold Gleason method as well, a book that I had then (1960) and still have today.

I was always taught to "feel" my way in pedaling, and at one point my teacher draped a towel over my lap and attached it to the Choir manual during lessons ... talk about building confidence in a hurry ... but it worked.

As for playing today with my knees together today, I quite honestly don't know as I never look down at my legs or feet ... never!! I only turn on the pedal light for the amusement of the choir as they seem to be very amused or amazed watching my pedaling technique during church services.
 

Soubasse

New member
At two of my early lessons, I had my knees strapped together when doing pedal exercises! He was a bit of joker my first teacher but was very good and made a point. I will confess that it's been a while since I've looked at my feet whilst playing.
 

Krummhorn

Administrator
Staff member
ADMINISTRATOR
. . . As for playing today with my knees together today, I quite honestly don't know as I never look down . . .

Ok, for the benefit of those wondering, while playing this morning in church, I forced myself to look down ... the knees are not together when pedaling ... shoot, my knees are not together when I walk down the street either :lol:.

The way I was taught to achieve proper position at the console, was to place the left foot between A# and C#, and the right foot between D# and F# ... I noticed that this gap is the same distance my knees are apart while playing today.

So, is it then considered it proper pedalediquette :)rolleyes:) for the knees to be together these days? Would a judge during an organ playing competition knock off points for not having the knees together?
 

jvhldb

New member
It sounds like I have the same technique as Krummhorn and never look at my feet.

I went to an organ recital a couple of weeks ago. One of the local students studying at university arranged it as a fundraiser for his studies. I was amased that when playing he (and his old teacher) spent as much time looking at their feet as reading the music, and they had their knees together!
 

JONESEY

New member
I'm not *quite* there with not looking down at the pedals yet, but certainly getting better. The fact that I play on 3 different organs and each pedal board is different adds to the confusion (or should that be enjoyment?).

Hopefully before long I'll be pedalling without looking ... at least that's what I'm working towards!!!
 

schopfheim

New member
Pedalling for Organists, by Anne Marsden Thomas, recommends knees together. For a lot of repertoire this works. However my experiences in the Dorian Toccata and Fuge of Bach have been mixed. Knees together works fine in the Toccata, however in two places in the fugue which have 8 or more quavers (8th notes) together I was still getting wrong notes after four months. Then i tried with knees apart and succeeded in getting both places more accurate in 10 minutes than i had managed in the previous four months...

No prizes for guessing what system I shall use in future.
 

Krummhorn

Administrator
Staff member
ADMINISTRATOR
Hi schopfheim,

Welcome to the forum :)

I started out with the Harold Gleason method book as recommended by my organ teacher. I then migrated over to the Stainer method in later years which allows for crossing over and under on the pedalboard, something that I believe Mr. Gleason frowned upon.

In my 'senior citizen' years I think any manner that is employed to hit all the right notes most of the time is acceptable to most. I have no idea what my legs and feet are doing when playing anyway - I never look down. They seem to hit all the correct notes.
 

pcnd5584

New member
I quote Ton Koopman's opinion on fingerings: "Any method is good as long as it gives the required result".

I would concur with this.

I would not be too worried about looking at your feet, either. Whilst one should not really spend more time looking at one's feet than the music, this idea of never looking at one's feet is a little unrealistic. After all - which of us can say truthfully that we never (ever) look at our hands or fingers - or, for that matter, that we lunge at stops by feel, as if we had bags over our heads?

In addition to being a qualified and experienced player myself, I have sat on organ benches beside a number of cathedral organists (and not just in the UK) - and I can assure you that, when it has been a choice between looking or playing a wrong note, or pressing a wrong piston, they have looked - every time.
 
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Albert

New member
The organ method I first used as a 25 year old adult drafted into playing in services was a two book set by Ernst Kaller. I still use those very worn books as my "back to basics" when I get sloppy. The books were designed for those who "have a certain facility on the piano" to convert. 50 years later I still have to concentrate very hard to play staccato notes long enough on the organ. One would think that after all that time I would be used to 1/2 time for staccato, but it isn't so.

Fingering ahead on the organ is more important than on the piano. In the piano one can use the damper pedal to sustain notes played with the hands bouncing around, but on the organ as soon as one lets go of the note, the wind stops, the note stops, and you lose the fluency. You might be able to do a certain passage at moderate speed without losing the fluency, but when the speed gets up, the smoothness goes away. Part of the fingering and pedaling has to include what one of my teachers calls "spider fingers" - changing fingers on notes smoothly and rapidly, and in the pedals as well so that the next note is accessible. I had a childhood accident that means that I cannot play more than a ninth with the right hand, and that is a hard stretch.

The only solution has been mentioned above several times (I'm late to the discussion) and that is to begin the practice slowly. Get each phrase going the way it should and then gradually increase the speed until you play it the way you want to hear it.

Welcome to the forums, and keep going. The organ is a superb instrument and well worth the effort.
 

Padster

New member
stick with it, it'll be worth all the teeth grinding and pain in the long run

Reality check. It won't, unless you can afford your own digital instrument at home and you keep away from churches. They don't appreciate classical music. And classical music is what you'll be learning on the organ.

It was not worth it in my situation. I acquired skills that are now rendered virtually useless, thanks to the churches' desire for self-harm and modernisation. I should have stuck to the piano. At least I can have one in my house and play it when I like.

Good luck and best wishes,
Padster
 
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