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Thread: last movement of the Tchaikovsky piano concerto

  1. #1
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    last movement of the Tchaikovsky piano concerto

    On another forum, I just had a big fight with another contributor over how the last movement of the Tchaikovsky piano concerto shoud be analyzed.
    Before I give you his opinion and mine, I would like a third opinion.
    What form do YOU think it's in?
    What form do other analysts think it's in?
    Here are some printed sources which discuss the Tchaikovsky piano concerto.
    I would look them up myself, except that I am stranded overseas with no English library access:

    Dubal, David
    The Essential Canon of Classical Music
    p. 360

    Pooler, Marie
    A listening guide to major orchestral literature
    p. 112

    Ewen, David
    Ewen's musical masterworks: the encyclopedia of musical masterpieces
    p. 618

    Norris, Jeremy
    The Russian piano concerto, volume I: the nineteenth century
    p. 114

    DeVine, George
    Knoxville Symphony Orchestra Programs
    37th Season 1971-72, Apr. 18 p. 9
    40th Season 1974-75, Mar. 20 p. 7
    46th Season 1980-81, Oct. 16 p. 10
    51st Season 1985-86, Feb. 13

    Alford, Chris
    Knoxville Symphony Orchestra Programs
    54th Season 1988-89, Sept. 15
    59th Season 1993-94, May 5

    Rodda, Dr. Richard E.
    Knoxville Symphony Orchestra Programs
    62nd Season 1997-98, Sept. 18

    Field, Corey
    The musician's guide to symphonic music : essays from the Eulenburg scores
    p. 639

    Hales, Philip
    Great Concert Music: Boston Symphony Program Notes
    p. 356

    Holoman, D. Kern
    Evenings with the orchestra: a Norton companion for concert goers
    p. 591

    Kramer, Jonathan
    Listen to the music
    p. 760

    Mordden, Ethan
    A Guide to Orchestral Music: the Handbook for Non-Musicians (1980)
    p. 258

    Slonimsky, Nicolas
    The great composers and their works
    p. 330

    Biancolli, Louis Leopold, ed.
    The analytical concert guide
    p. 636

    Borowski, Felix
    Chicago Symphony Orchestra Programs
    43rd Season 1933-34, p. 427-432
    43rd Season 1933-34, p. 600-604
    45th Season 1935-36, p. 505
    46th Season 1936-37, p. 238
    47th Season 1937-38, p. 530
    48th Season 1938-39, Civic Orchestra. Second Concert. Jan. 29
    50th Season 1940-41, p. 206
    50th Season 1940-41, p.604
    51st Season 1941-42, p. 301
    52nd Season 1942-43, p.536

    Kramer, Jonathan
    Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra, 1998-99, p. 47

    Frankenstein, Alfred
    Modern Guide to Symphonic Music
    p. 610

    Fallows-Hammond, Patricia
    Three Hundred Years at the Keyboard
    p. 192

    Veinus, Abraham
    Victor Book of Concertos
    p. 395

    Smith, George H. L.
    Great Orchestral Music
    p. 427

  2. #2
    Rear Admiral Appassionata (Ret) Ghekorg7 (Ret)'s Avatar
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    Piano concerto No1 in Bbminor, op23, 3rd mov

    Hello tomato.
    Here's my knowledge to the 3rd movement.

    Allegro con fuoco, Bbminor in 3/4 in sonata form.
    First theme plays the piano in Bbminor and a fortissimo episode for full orchestra in Gb Major is in the nature of a second false theme.
    The real 2nd theme appearing in the violins with horn accompaniment in Db major.
    The piano takes it up, returning in the end to the 1st theme played with full ochestra and piano.
    In the development the 2nd theme appears in Eb major.
    The recapitulation brings the 1st theme back on the piano in Bb minor and the 2nd theme in Bb major (!)
    Basses and timpani with a long pedal point on F lead to the repeat of the 2nd theme, molto meno mosso, playing piano with full orchestra (!)
    The Coda, allegro vivo in Bb major, drives the work to its conclusion in a very brilliant manner.

    Tchaikovsky dedicated this concerto to Rubinstein, who rejected it badly(!)
    A well known story. So it must be played in a very deeply emotional way.

    That's what I know. I played it when I was 20....now, ...I analyse.
    Cheers
    Panos
    *It's like a fight with women, which always ends in .... bed.*
    F.Kafka, Aphorisms.

  3. #3
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    Thank you, Ghekorg!

    This is how I conceived of it:


    A in tonic, ms. 1
    (subtheme in GbM, ms. 37)
    (modulatory passage beginning from FM, ms. 45)
    B in DbM, ms. 57
    A in tonic, ms. 89
    (subtheme in AbM, ms. 114)
    (modulatory passage beginning from GM, ms. 122)
    B in EbM, ms. 134
    A in tonic, ms. 159
    B in BbM, ms. 252


    This seems to have common points with your analysis.


    The contributor on the other forum assigns upper case letters to the subthemes and modulatory passages, ignores what I call the B theme, and for some reason, places markers at measures 182 and 243. He claims to have discussed the movement with David Brown, author of a two-volume work on Tchaikovsky. Brown is supposed to discuss this particular movement on pages 21-22 of the second volume. I am stranded overseas with no English library access, so I don't know.


    Although I don't quite see the sonata form in the movement, it is reassuring to see that I am not completely off my trolley.

  4. #4
    Rear Admiral Appassionata (Ret) Ghekorg7 (Ret)'s Avatar
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    Hi Tomato !

    I'm glad we agree !
    There is certainly a B theme : one false and the original.
    Sonata form I insist.
    I learned from my teacher many years ago. She got instructions from Alexis Weisenberg in 1958 or so...who played the concerto under Von Karajan directive.
    I believe we're right, at least the chain from witch I learned seems very respective !

    Cheers
    Panos
    *It's like a fight with women, which always ends in .... bed.*
    F.Kafka, Aphorisms.

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    Admiral of Fugues Contratrombone64's Avatar
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    Which piano concerto? He wrote three ...
    I'm not an atheist and I don't think I can call myself a pantheist. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many different languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God.
    —Albert Einstein.

  6. #6
    Rear Admiral Appassionata (Ret) Ghekorg7 (Ret)'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Contratrombone64 View Post
    Which piano concerto? He wrote three ...
    Look at my first post reply David, at headline.
    At least this I understood Tomato was refering.
    Now, if he means other....
    *It's like a fight with women, which always ends in .... bed.*
    F.Kafka, Aphorisms.

  7. #7
    Admiral of Fugues Contratrombone64's Avatar
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    I wasn't aiming my comment at you, Ghekorg ...
    I'm not an atheist and I don't think I can call myself a pantheist. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many different languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God.
    —Albert Einstein.

  8. #8
    Rear Admiral Appassionata (Ret) Ghekorg7 (Ret)'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Contratrombone64 View Post
    I wasn't aiming my comment at you, Ghekorg ...
    OK . Understood. No harm done. Tomato had to specify witch one, that's for sure. He had to be exact and on the spot for a serious matter as this one.

    To tell you the truth, I guessed by instict it was the 1st one
    *It's like a fight with women, which always ends in .... bed.*
    F.Kafka, Aphorisms.

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