Understanding American Conservatism

[KBOC]

Problem is: there are 6 billion people on the planet. Huge problems with poverty.

Which, interestingly enough is perpetuated by "Western Aid" which perpetuates the problem.

Western world is sucking in money like a giant leech.

You continually prove you're complete ignorance of how wealth is created. It's why "debating" with you is a waste of time. One can't debate with someone who can't grasp basic concepts such as value creation.

Apart from that I believe in dynamics in our way of thinking and change in our structures.

How does changing "Our way of thinking" change the rest of the world? It doesn't solve any problems in the rest of the world, just our own.

I would like to believe that mankind would start to think a little one day.. that our evolution wasn't only technically, but also in a more mental way..

"Mental"... hmmmm...

Who knows.. we might actually improve as we make larger and larger catastrophes and we start to upgrade our brains and genes.. but within the next period of time.. I fear that we'll be heading into some really dark times and I would actually like, not to see the world unfold in the way it does..

LMAO! Let me guess: The Hurricanes are all George Bush's fault... right?

[Priest]

come on.. illuminate me then if you are so wise and I'm so ignorant. I don't claim that other countries would be different from those of the western world if they had a stronger economy.. I don't neglect the fact that other countries are filled with human beings..

only thing I claim is that we have a responsibility and random bombings of so-called "evil-empires" don't seem to be helping on the general stability of things.


Look at it.. try eventually to travel beyond your own shores.. try to see what happens from sources other than your own countries media.. and tell me that there is no problem.. tell me that we are actually doing something that increases the chance of 3rd world countries developing in a larger degree than we decrease their chances.

It is down to one thing.. cheap production prizes. Very few "aid" initiatives are actually not to our own benefit.. and when they are.. they are driven by opinion polls.. and when something more excitening comes along, the old problem is forgotten.



How does changing "Our way of thinking" change the rest of the world?


Look upon it.. Pax Americana.. would you say it hasn't had an effect on the world. For a short period of light it stood as a beacon of light for a large chunk of the world.. a glowing path in the darkness that succumbs the majority of the planets population, but now that same flag is an abonimation for most eyes to behold. Your country has [censored] up.. inward and outward. Your president is a joke and the cabinet behind him consists of people representing power-mongering corporations. The world is now multi-polarized.. each greater nation ready to claim theirs from where the US fails, enjoying each little failure..

.. and mark my word.. I don't necessarily see this is as a good thing. I do actually like stability, but hey.. 6 billion people just can't get along fine.. and that is as well why I say we are propably heading for darker times.


What's your point with your last remark? To note the lack of coherency in your post or..? Don't say that I'm not making any points and then not make any yourself..

[sondance]

Hi Michel:
I appreciate your honest answer to this daunting question. It is not easy to find a dependable source of hope in this post-moderm time. When I was young I plunged into a typical abandonment of reason to become what we called a W.E.D. (week-end drunk - could not let parents or teachers discover our rowdyness). By the time I was sixteen I saw this quickly fall apart against the bigger questions of life, which remained unaswered by art, science, philosophy and humanistic theology. Found good answers and something more resolute to trust. I encourage you to look past truth centered on man's ability to reason or evolve. Don't ever stop searching, and don't distrust all things ancient.
Ken

[Priest]

I'm not quite sure if I follow you on this one Ken?

What are you suggesting... that I should stop getting drunk in the weekends, find God or delude myself in some other way?

[Priest]

was a quick answer made early in the morning..
of course one should not stop searching for answers in things. As I see it, everything is circles or spheres in various sizes. I can go affect my sphere in some way.. being either nice or rude to people.. and in some way this effect will spread. If I'm rude to people around me.. well.. I might just make their day in a really bad way.. then they take out their anger on someone else and vice versa.. I could be really nice and caring to people I meet.. and might be a good example.

I do believe in fighting for some excistential things. I have my opinions, which you've propably noticed ;] .. though I'm not going to force my opinions down the throat of others, but one thing I do is to provoke people in being able to answer for what they stand for. Way too many people don't consider their actions.. most people are deluded by religions, government, media etc.. people tend to swallow whatever they are fed.. or at least what they are being taught to eat.

I see people as potential individuals.. but most people seldom take indivualism in their own hands. It is easier to follow the words and "wisdom" of others, rather than actually forming ones own opinion..


I reckon I might believe in some excistential gnosticisme.. though I'm not religious I do tend to believe that we are responsible for our own fate a certain degree, that not government, but ourselves are the one to find within ourselves what is right or wrong.

What I see as right and wrong might not be the same as you see it.. as the government see it or so on.. what is right and wrong is not universal. It is answers we have to find ourselves..


Then you might say... you have to follow the laws of your country! But if I do doubt them.. if I do find the reality that is forced unto me, to be false, I have to search within my self to see right from wrong.. who knows.. the fundament that the western world is build upon, what we see as right or wrong now, might later be portrayed as the largest crimes against humanity.

We are born, bred and beaten with the tunes of democracy and freedom, but are we actually free? If we all accepted things as they are, would it be a democracy in the first place? ... and is it really a democracy that we are living in, in the first place? We are taught that our way of living is the right one, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it is the right one. If you asked a german under the Third Reich, at least before the war broke out, he would propably claim that the way of the Reich was the only right way.. a communist in Russia, might have claimed the same before Glasnost.. why? Because they were bred to believe so..

I reckon that we are bred to believe that consumerism is the right way.. the free way..

But how would the next generations look upon us?
Those who consumed without thought of the coming generations, those who polluted the sky and ocean, wrecked havoc to environment? Would we be looked upon as criminals against the welfare of the planet, as irresponsible??


So yeah.. I kinda like my planet in many ways.. I enjoy nature, I enjoy seeing the various human fates blossom as well as the beauty of them wither.

I don't believe in the fact that everything should be all glamorous. My country is a good example of that. As a good chunk of the other regular users of this forum I'm danish. Denmark is in many ways a very perfect country. We have wellfunctioning education, good infrastructure, good social security, we are on the top 10 of least corrupt countries, we are on the top 10 list of having the most independent news covering and we have a pretty low crime rate and we are one of the countries in the world that pollute the least..

so everything is perfect isn't it?

we have freedom of speech.. what more could we want?? But mankind is far more complex than so.. we need something to fight for.. but all the things worth fighting for is so distanced from us.. so what can we fight for then.. to have more? The ungoing plague of the consumerism of our time.. or we can fight against ourselves... we are one of the countries with the highest suicide rates (I think it is topped by sweden and finland, which are both on the top10 list of least corrupt countries). I've met people who come here from Pakistan, Venezuela, South Africa etc.. places where the values we have here and take for granted is utopic dreams.. and when they come here.. they say that it reminds them of one big mental institution..


so.. I reckon that perfection is non-excistent..
what is left to believe in then? Back to my post earlier this morning.. should I delude myself then with religion, some forced political opinion or should I stop drinking in the weekends....

[sondance]

Thanks, Michel, for taking the time to articulate your observations and conclusions to date.
Much for me to think on.

Our vantage points in history, culture and geography are different, although not totally dissimilar. As I mentioned elsewhere in this forum, my mother's family moved from England to the American colonies in the late 1600s and they believe the family name may have come from Denmark through William the Conqueror (via the Norseman settlement of Normandy in France). Of course I do not claim to understand then what it is to be Danish. Sounds like it is very nice.

It is good to hear what the world looks like from another view. Here in "Silicon Valley" California I have had the pleasure of working with or knowing many folks from Russia, China, India, Vietnam, Philippines, as well as a smaller number of people from Ethiopia, Egypt, Israel, Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, Scotland, Ireland, England, Germany, Switzerland, Austria, Greece, Norway, Cambodia, Burma, New Zealand, Venezuela, Colombia, Mexico and Canada. So I tend to keep an open mind and appreciate different thinking ... some. It gets harder when you are over 50 because some ideas become very critical to preserving your peace in this world.

Thanks again for the dialog,
Ken

[giovannimusica]

As an immigrant, I find it hard to believe that the U.S.A is such a horrible place, that Bush is the *paragon of evil* and all the other epithets that are hurled out by certain *elements* of the media. Why then are people *dying to get in*, from Mexico, Asia and even Europe, of all places? Having lived in the U.S. since 1992, seen the welfare rolls shoot up to fifty million people since Kommisar Klinton *reformed welfare as we know it*, Bush comes across as the real compassionate one who believes in a hand-up, not a hand-out.

I, for one, believe that the world is full of smart people. Sadly, though, many are ill-informed. An Afro-American economist named Dr. Thomas Sowell has written many great books on economics and public policy. If you were to really read, study and write on what Dr. Sowell shares, you would definitely plug-up vast holes in your educational background. One of his latest books entitled "Black Rednecks, White Liberals", shreds to pieces the most cherished shibboleths the liberal party maintains that it best represents the Afro-American community.

Having invested time, money and effort in Social Welfare Offices, I have seen with my own eyes how damaging to people's self-respect all the programs which throw money at them are. Again, it's a hand-up, not a hand-out, which helps people grow and mature as self-supporting individuals.

[giovannimusica]

I have also spent time in the soup kitchens - preparing and serving hot meals for the indigent - try it, you might like it. The liberals can talk a good line about all the good things they do, but when push comes to shove you never find them on the front-lines. They are safely ensconced away somewhere, back-slapping and swilling champagne.

Having also spent time in Stockholm and witnessing the Swedish social welfare system collapse because of ineptitude and illwill towards the indigent and the local government giving up and placing the whole burden on the local churches and salvation army, I saw the need for cooperation and sharing the burden -Church and State together-neither one can do it all alone.

[Bud Fields]

Oh, boy!

I come to a place to repose peacefully, and find this?

But, then again, it does offer a modicum of enlightenment.

To think that change in America exists because of Rush Limbaugh is no more than the rooster thinking the sun rises merely because he crows.

But, as I have been told before, having an opinion, much less daring to have one different from Mr. Limbaugh simply identifies me to the world as a moron. And, if there be any doubt, just ask Mr. Limbaugh: he'll gladly pontificate ad nauseum.

Am I neutral?

[Colorful Mage]

I only read the first post, and I offer this insight:

The biggest problem with the political systems in many countries is that each party works against eachother. It is nearly always "Right is good; Left is bad" or vice versa. People are either divided into either a democrat, or a republican, or a socialist, or a libertarian, and so on. They are thus labeled so, and are grouped together with a category that many consider enemies. I live in the South-Eastern United States, and one billboard in Atlanta, Georgia advertises a radio station with the caption "Liberals hate it!" What purpose does this serve? Why are people so quick to choose enemies and so hesitant to choose friends?

Although I'd prefer to stay out of this debate, I just want to get my opinion out here. I would've created a new topic for this, and I will if you think it does not belong in this one, but the first post reminded me to say this.

[acciaccatura]

For some reason, I find this topic mildly inappropriate here, not because of its detachment from music (it COULD have been transformed into an on-topic discussion, but I am not seeing that), but rather because of the flavor of this board. A disproportionate percentage of members are from Denmark, a tiny country with a completely different culture and completely different values than the USA. Any political discussion between our citizens will quickly develop into mudslinging, and indeed there has been signs of that here already, without really entering the core zone of what this debate is all about.

Besides, when discussing a political subject, there should be a level playing field -and this is simply not present, as only one party can discuss in its native language and the other cannot. If you have difficulties finding the right words, you will appear to your counterpart as stupid, and any weakness will be exploited at once, and to the full, exactly like what has happened until now.

A civilized debate must have a willingness to acknowledge differences in each others' backgrounds, culture, political landscape, and language. There should be a curiosity to understand where the other person is coming from rather than this aggressive need to 'win' at all cost. There is so many debate opportunities on the net, most of which have the worst thinkable tone - let us not lower ourselves to the 'free speech' dogma that prevents any meaningful discussion but merely serves as an outlet for frustrations, at the expense of your fellow board members.

For the above reasons, I will refrain from participating in the substance of this thread.