Releasing resampled commercial set for free?

[Jay1]

Would it be considered piracy to release a resampled version of a high-profile commercial sample set?

I've been working on one particular (encrypted) sample set which can be demo'd for HW3, resampling it for GO. It's taken some work as I'm a complete neophyte at this but it's coming along very nicely.

Seeing as the prices of these sample sets are somewhat outrageous and out of most peoples'financial reach I was wondering if it would be considered inappropriate to release the work to the community when it's done. It would still be for GO, so all the benefits of HW3 are lost, but for all intents and purposes you get to play the sample set in its original presentation.

Would be good to spread the goods around in the community. I'd like to hear your thoughts.

 

[JayR]

Jay,

As a person who never reads the license agreements on electronic media, even I would have to suggest that redistributing a commercial sample set in any way, without permission from the owner/publisher of the original samples, would violate the license agreement. However, if you do inform the owner/publisher of the original sampes of your intent, and they give you written permission to redistribute your altered set of samples for use with GO, then I believe you are in the clear.

Good Luck with your project!
Jay

 

[ggoode.sa]

Hi Jay1,
I'm sure that when you downloaded and installed the demo sample set that you had to agree to a license. That license probably forbids you from resampling, sharing, using in public & a few other things... So, yes, this would be seen as piracy. Now if you went and recorded the same organ & created your own set from that - their license would not apply.
GrahamG

 

[Ghekorg7 (Ret)]

Hi Jay1.
Both Graham & Jay have right.
But you can always ask the owner of the set !
There are some of them who maybe don't mind if you do it. Of course they will ask for some terms ect, but is better to try... you'll never know!
Say your intentions clear.
If you keep your work to your self everything is fine - you can share it with some of your friends in private, but this is illegal too....

It's just the way it is.
That's why works like Burea and JeuxD'orgues are golden treasures.....

Cheers
Panos

 

[Clarion]

Would it be considered piracy to release a resampled version of a high-profile commercial sample set?

What rights do commercial vendors really have?? They didn't create anything. They just copied someone else's creation, the pipe organ builder's; and and are now marketing copies of the organ builder's creation without securing permission nor paying royalties.

 

[Ghekorg7 (Ret)]

What rights do commercial vendors really have?? They didn't create anything. They just copied someone else's creation, the pipe organ builder's; and and are now marketing copies of the organ builder's creation without securing permission nor paying royalties.

A point here for further discusion Clarion !

There are some serious vendors that secure permission, I know.
Some of them are saying that some of the money go to the church = the owner of the real organ. But do they? We have to believe that, no?

On the other hand the real creator is the real organ builder, but he too in the past did his masterpiece just to get payed by church (= the owner who ordered the work) not to starve or just as a compensation for his work.

Things are more complicated today I'affraid..

regards
Panos

 

[Clarion]

On the other hand the real creator is the real organ builder, but he too in the past did his masterpiece just to get payed by church (= the owner who ordered the work) not to starve or just as a compensation for his work.

Which adds a whole new wrinkle to the scenario. If the church paid the builder to create something; which upon completion and payment without any kind of licencing agreement, then the organ becomes the sole property of the church, with all the rights and privileges of absolute ownership attached thereto!

 

[ggoode.sa]

What rights do commercial vendors really have?? They didn't create anything. They just copied someone else's creation, the pipe organ builder's; and and are now marketing copies of the organ builder's creation without securing permission nor paying royalties.

If the church paid the builder to create something; which upon completion and payment without any kind of licencing agreement, then the organ becomes the sole property of the church, with all the rights and privileges of absolute ownership attached thereto!

Most musical instruments become the property of the purchaser, and the rights and privileges to perform and record it come with those rights. To say that Steinway should receive royalties for all the recordings that their pianos feature in would be viewed as silly. Now we know that each organ is a unique instrument, and that the person who built/restored was able to create his own 'flavour' of pipe organ sound... but the principal of 'instrument' applies. Compensation/Payment was given.

For me, I cannot begrudge sample set creators from charging for their samples. The work that goes into recording, reducing the blower noise, tuning the samples, creating the loops and releases, and then creating the organ definition file is huge! I know because I have been involved in the release of two sample sets (and I'm still working on a few others). I have worked with a group of people - so we have shared the work, and have been able to release under a free license.

So for me, the commercial vender DID create something. In fact they did a lot of work to create something. And for many of the commercial sample sets, the church that 'owns' the organ did get a payment, or gets a percentage of the sample set sales.

My personal problem is the high cost of many of the commercial sample sets. It seems to me that more people would purchase the sets at a lower price, and therefore the sales of the set would bring in more revenue (people have to eat!).

All the best,
GrahamG

 

[Jay1]

Hi Jay1.
Both Graham & Jay have right.
But you can always ask the owner of the set !
There are some of them who maybe don't mind if you do it. Of course they will ask for some terms ect, but is better to try... you'll never know!
Say your intentions clear.
If you keep your work to your self everything is fine - you can share it with some of your friends in private, but this is illegal too....

It's just the way it is.
That's why works like Burea and JeuxD'orgues are golden treasures.....

Cheers
Panos

Hey Panos,

What's this Burea set you speak of? Is there a link somewhere I can check it out?

Cheers

 

[ggoode.sa]

Hi Jay,

We're in the middle of uploading then next Beta version of the Burea Church sample set, so give us some time to get that done. This next release will have the 63 rank extended version, so it is well worth the wait!!

GrahamG

 

[Ghekorg7 (Ret)]

Hey Panos,

What's this Burea set you speak of? Is there a link somewhere I can check it out?

Cheers

Hi Jay1,

I thought you knew about Burea....it lays in our forum for quite a time now ! See the post has the link to Lars' site !

But as Graham says, we all wait now for the newer version, some birds told me (with details....) that's gonna be amazing.......
So wait a bit.... by the way : Indeed go to Lars site ! First to meet the man and wonder a bit to the little gems this site has. Second, There is the small im/p organ of the Burea Funeral church. Is a very good free set and worth having. you can this way get a small taste of what's Lars' work and Grahams'....."post production":grin:

have fun !
Panos

 

[ggoode.sa]

Hi Guys,

See http://www.magle.dk/music-forums/11999-second-beta-bure-church.html for the updated sample set!

GrahamG

 

[Jay1]

Hi Jay1,

I thought you knew about Burea....it lays in our forum for quite a time now ! See the post has the link to Lars' site !

But as Graham says, we all wait now for the newer version, some birds told me (with details....) that's gonna be amazing.......
So wait a bit.... by the way : Indeed go to Lars site ! First to meet the man and wonder a bit to the little gems this site has. Second, There is the small im/p organ of the Burea Funeral church. Is a very good free set and worth having. you can this way get a small taste of what's Lars' work and Grahams'....."post production":grin:

have fun !
Panos

Sorry for my ignorance but who is this Lars you speak of and can't you simply link the website? You see, I am new here.

 

[Ghekorg7 (Ret)]

Hi Jay1

Lars' site is where you got the Burea set !
Now has a picture of him in front of his' 3m/p red/silver "craft" !
A nice one Lars !

regards
Panos

 

[L.Palo]

Thanks Panos!

I'll keep improving the site, and there will be more samplesets coming. I already have a few more organs recorded and another small one is in it's finishing stages!

I'll eventually rebuild the keyboard stack to make my setup even more organ-like. Now the distance between the manuals is too great to be ideal, but it works.

Kind regards

Lars P

 

[Jay1]

Hey Lars,

Seeing as you're in good 'ol Sverige, any chance you can manage to sample the "North German Baroque Organ" in Göteborg some day? (as you might be able to tell, I'm a sucker for these vintage organs). That would really be something!

And BTW nice work on the Burea Sample Set. I've only just tried testing a few stops (haven't even dared to try the extended version yet). Very nice, clean, modern organ. I particularly enjoyed the stereo effects. A hot commodity for us GO users for sure!

Keep up the good work.

John

 

[L.Palo]

Hi!

I've played the big "North German Baroque" organ in Örgryte (as well as the small one in Haga) church. A very great instrument in every meaning of the word! The mechanics are quite heavy in touch, but the organ produces a wonderful sound indeed!

Unfortunately I think the chances of getting that instrument sampled are slim, but I have good alternatives much closer to where I live.

My next finished sampleset will be a small organ built by Per Zacharias Strand in 1839 that still survives in original state. (More or less, since a blower is introduced... but it's still possible to work the bellows by the old foot lever)

Kind regards

 

[Ghekorg7 (Ret)]

Thanks Panos!

I'll keep improving the site, and there will be more samplesets coming. I already have a few more organs recorded and another small one is in it's finishing stages!

I'll eventually rebuild the keyboard stack to make my setup even more organ-like. Now the distance between the manuals is too great to be ideal, but it works.

Kind regards

Lars P

You're welcome dear Lars,

Now you hit me hard... new sets are coming ?!
Can't wait...

Hey, drop me a line if you need assiatance with prerelease tests or even looping and in general handling the samples ! I'm in full if you need to.

My friend Spyro works in M-Audio dealer here as a manager, since I saw your kbd stack I'll go and try one keystation .......

best regards
Panos

 

[giwro]

Being one of those folk who have created a commercial set, I'll weigh in here on a few things....
Is it really "our" work, since it was originally created by an organbuilder?
- Yes. I probably spent somewhere between 300-400 hours on the creation of my set. It is not simply recording some notes, one literally has to "re-craft" the results into something that (hopefully) closely resembles the original. The closest analogy I have is that it is similar to a student copying a painting by a master...
Interestingly enough, now some organbuilders include a contract clause that prohibits sampling (although I doubt it could ever be enforced!)
The sets are too expensive!
- I can understand that... I've complained about it before also. It is a hard decision to come to a price as a sample producer. In many cases, the venue charges very high rental costs (I know of one set that required over $10,000 US in rental). Add travel and other costs, and you must realize this really is a risk on producers part. I chose to set my price lower, since I didn't have high rental costs...
Can I resample a commercial set and release for free?
- Absolutely not. Commercial is just that - something produced for profit. In fact, you are probably technically not even allowed to resample it even for your own private use (although if you use it privately, I doubt anyone would really care)
The evil sample producers don't really give some of the profits back to the church/venue, do they?
- Well, this one has. Really, we're not horrible people, and some of us are actually rather nice (even generous) folk. :grin: I know many of the HW sample producers, and I can assure you that if they say they are donating, they really are... I know it seems weird to some of you, but it is true.

Finally, I'd say this - especially as it relates to the price of the sets:
I know that costs near $700-$1000 range seem excessive, and I agree that it makes it difficult for some folks to buy. I think of it this way
- it is much cheaper (and easier) than a trip to the actual venue, plus I can KEEP playing the instrument through the years
- I have found that if I REALLY want something, I can find a way to sacrifice and get it. I may have to actually SAVE money rather than whip out the credit card (but then I appreciate it much more in the end!)
- considering the work (hundreds of hours and in some cases, several million lines of code for the organ definition) I think it is honorable to compensate the producers for their labor.

Cheers,

- G

 

[L.Palo]

I very much agree with Graham on this subject!

As a sampleset producer I know how much work goes into a finished product. Investements in both time, equipment and software. I don't see any problem that a producer wish to charge for their product. That's something one should respect and of course not violate by copying etc. Other people just make the choice of either paying for the product or say no thank you, I'll pass!

Personally though, I don't think I'll ever charge for any sampleset I make because:

• It's a hobby of mine, not something I need to earn any income from nor want to have the responsibility of unhappy customers complaining (I'll try to make the samplesets as good as possible and appreciate feedback, but I'll work on them when I have time for it)
• Most of the software I use is free (gnu/gpl or other). If the tools are free for me to use, then I can also share the product I've created with them. (seems fair to me)
• I want as many people as possible to be able to enjoy playing organ, and the vpo is one way of achieving it.
• As a professional organist I can choose to record instruments I'm interested in myself and where the owners also rather like the thought of having advertising for free! Thus my own costs are pretty low, and it's a hobby interest for me anyway!

Therefore I choose to support GrandOrgue as best I can. Part of that is providing good samplesets for use with the vpo software (for free)!

Kind regards