MyOrgan and GrandOrgue MIDI stops control question

[HOW]

Hello Panos,
Once again, I thank you for your replies and help. The reason for the long sample was based on the difficulty in finding click free loop points with the complex waveforms. (And, that brings me back to a question I posed a couple of times before but no one responded to it. How does GrandOrgue start the release without introducing pops or clicks? (For example: If the release starts at an amplitude in one channel of the stereo waveform at, say, 200 millivolts but the note key was released when the amplitude was at 800 millivolts you would hear a loud click unless GO does not start the release point marker position until the waveform approaches 200 millivolts to match the release amplitude. Then the other stereo channel must also match that channel release point also.)
Or, does GrandOrgue calculate the best point to start the release after you release a note? I had noticed that the release marker on several organ waves were set at the zero crossing point. So does this mean that GO looks for the zero crossing point in the played waveform when the note is released before starting the release?

I guess I don't understand the release algorithm that GO utilizes.
Best regards,
Stan

 

[ggoode.sa]

Hi Stan,

From what little I can understand of the code it is a simple crossfade out of the loop and into the release using phase alignment from the release marker point... The release marker is a specific point in the wave file that the sample set creator configures for each note, so all that GO had to do is micro-fade into that point while initiating the playback of the release portion. I will pose the question to some of our more technical programmers in the team

Kind regards,
GrahamG

 

[Ghekorg7 (Ret)]

Stan,

If we get a sample, lets say C-3(063). Intro on note, sustain it and then release it but not stop recording untill the decay of sound (physical reverb) fades, then we cut this wav into two :
1: start and sustain untill release
2: release
and then we open these two files in a good sampler we must alter two parameters
release on No.1 = about 180ms and
attack on No.2 in a way that the release is not reproduced crudely,
this way we get a smooth representation of the 063 sample (loop is needed in No.1)

Now GO, as it comes from HW1 days, does this thing with a single wav file, but needs the marker point of the release.
This is not so physical when you play staccato. You get a sound close to small bells' release.

So in HW2/3/4 they introduced the two (as above) files and many more to get more physical sound with any known articulation.

I'm not so interested to know how programmers do, but I really want to be able to play music with any app and as close possible to the real thing. Of course with some basic knowledge of technical stuff.... he he, it's a wish and curse at the same time now-days !
By the way I'm programming synthesizers & samplers from 1978 onwards...... so I know about the... curse !!

Best
Panos

 

[HOW]

Hello Graham,
That makes sense. I suppose if the fade out is sufficiently rapid, the human ear response would ignore a brief out of phase period. I had built some Eprom organ sound generators (one per note per stop) using this same concept except the natural reverb was not recorded and the loop and release "markers" were particular memory address locations. I did not use a micro processor, so the circuitry was complex and redundant but there was never a polyphony problem even with inter octave coupling. Of course there were no hassles with computer glitches and no boot up required.
Thank you and best regards,
Stan

 

[HOW]

Hello Panos,
I guess I am not so much of a purist. I tend to mix actual orchestral samples with pipe organ voices and if the ensembles or the pipe organ voices sound realistic I am happy. The articulation is important with solo voices but with ensembles it seems to go unnoticed.
Anyway, as you stated in your helpful reply GO takes care of the release so long as the marker is at the correct point.
My curse is not having sufficient time.
Best regards,
Stan

 

[Ghekorg7 (Ret)]

Hi Stan,

We suffer from the same curse......

Best
Panos

 

[sesquialtera]

Hi friends,

I've just bought two electronic cards to build my own real pull-push stops button, on each side of my keyboards.

http://musiquesetorgues.pagespro-orange.fr/page58.html
(It's made for Hauptwerk, but the seller told me it was ok for GrandOrgue too...)

So, I spent one month to build my two woodboxes, with 27 stops each...

​

Unfortunatly, I've got a porblem with GrandOrgue.
When I push one stop, it works fine, but when I push more than 8 stops, its going mad !
( some stops are selected, some other are disabled in a total random way ) :bawl:
I tried with several sound banks, everytime, the results are the same :
When I pull more than 8 stops, the registration becomes unpredictable ...
Have you got an advice, a solution ? Thank you for your help... ray:

 

[L.Palo]

Hi!

Stop control in GO is very simple and from my experience works very reliably, so unfortunately I'd suspect that the hardware is the culprit.

The stops in GO simply respond to MIDI messages NOTE ON (for active stop, and stop is active as long as NOTE ON is sent) and NOTE OFF (de-activates the stop). I have no problem activating all stops in Bureå church sampleset at the same time by setting a keyboard to channel 5 and playing a large chromatic cluster from the 036-C and upwards. The correct stops are activated and de-activated.

Possibly you could hook up your stop hardware to something like MIDI OX or any similar software that can monitor the MIDI messages that are sent from the hardware to confirm that only the right messages are sent no matter if you activate only one stop or many. (or confirm that it doesn't and then return the faulty hardware)

Judging from the webpage I'd be very suspicious about the quality of this hardware (and professionalism of the seller), especially the lack of specification of the MIDI parts is worrying.

For anyone that's interested in a mechanical stop control system I'd recommend a much more hardcore DIY version of either stripping a MIDI keyboard and hooking into the switches with the stops or purchase a good MIDI interface card (for instance from midi gadgets boutique) that can handle the MIDI messages reliably and connect the stop switches to it.

Obviously, GO stop control works just fine from my MIDI keyboard so I seriously doubt the function of the hardware...

Sorry, but this is the best idea I have.

Kind regards

Lars P

 

[sesquialtera]

thank you for your reply Lars,

I should have ask you for an advice before buying this stuff.
I think you are right !
I hooked up the hardware to Cubase, and the list editor shows midi messages notes : f1 f#1 g1 ... When I pull more than 8 knobs, I've got the same problem than with GrandOrgue : Several random stops become "on" or "off" in a random way, with no reason...

I even tried the Hauptwerk4 demo with the St Anne () sample set.
The problem is the same after the 8th or 9th stop.

As you can see on the picture, inside the box, each switch is kept in the closed position untill I pull the stop. Then the switch is open, and the hardware send a midi on message untill I push the stop, the switch is closed again and then the hardware send a midi off message ...
Do you think the problem is here ?
Will it be the same if I reverse the switches ?
Switch open when the stop is not used, and switch closed if the stop is pulled ??? :crazy:
sorry for all thoses questions ... (help)

 

[L.Palo]

Hi!

As I don't know anything about the specific hardware you have for stop control it's hard to give any specific advice.

First of all it's a question of how much was pre-assembled of the hardware and how much you have been connecting yourself. Was the MIDI stop control you bought ready to use out of the box of did you make connections yourself?

If you yourself had to create the scan matrix, and all wire connections it's of course possible that something got wrong there and that you should review the assembly to make sure everything is connected in such a way that it's intended.

Does both cards exhibit the same problem? Is the problem always happening after the same 8th stop is activated? (have you tried using different order?)

Just some more ideas for you to try...

Kind regards

Lars P

 

[ggoode.sa]

This MIDI device is by Eric Dalest, so it would be best to ask him for support. The MIDI device is either not wired correctly or is faulty, as you should be getting unique MIDI Note On / Off signals with each contact connection, regardless of whether the circuit is usually open or closed at startup time. Other people who have used his products have good reviews about them, so hopefully Eric can get you sorted out.

Kind regards,
GrahamG

 

[sesquialtera]

@Lars :
The green electronic card was already conected (sorry the picture is too small )
, and then , I had to connect each switch on the electric dominos.
Does both cards exhibit the same problem? yes
Is the problem always happening after the same 8th stop is activated? yes, but with differents unpredicable results...
have you tried using different order? yes, it appens with whatever stop I pull.

@ Graham,
thank you for your reply
I told E Dalest about my problem ... we exange a few mails, but I think he didn't really understood what's happening...
He'll perform a organ concert near my town in 3 weeks, and he told me he'll come at my house to have a look...

Maybe, with your kind advices and his after sell service, we'll both find a solution ...

 

[ggoode.sa]

From the look of this MIDI board you are dealing with a 5x8 Matrix for your MIDI connections. It is not large enough for me to see if there are Diodes on the board to prevent cross matrix connections... and as your problem only starts after 8 knobs have been drawn I would suspect something wrong within the Matrix wiring or diode placement. You can email a larger picture to me - email ggoode (dot) sa (at) gmail (dot) com... and I'll have a closer look.

Kind regards,
GrahamG

 

[sesquialtera]

Thank you Graham,

I've sent you an E-mail with pictures of my cards and stop-box.

Maybe I"m wrong but all the personnal stops installations I've seen
( http://www.pcorgan.com/FotosEN.html, from the middle of the page and further...)
seem to be customised for Hauptwerk and not for GrandOrgue ...

 

[ggoode.sa]

Hi,

The same method of sending MIDI Note On /Off works for both HW and GrandOrgue (and jOrgan for that matter), so it really doesn't matter what everyone else is using them for. Eric is more present on the HW forum than on the other forums so I'm not surprised that many are using this with HW. The real issue is to solve the current problem that you are experiencing. You've wired things correctly, so the issue must be either a crossing wire or a power issue with the USB on the board.

Kind regards,
GrahamG

 

[HOW]

Midi stops solution for adding your own mechanical stops

This product will add up to 32 stops per division at the present time and you can select note on off messages for stops, program change messages, Ahlborn Galanti stop change messages for the various archive modules by changing version jumpers. It requires a 5 volt power supply.
http://store.hlabs.com/pk4/store.pl?view_product=62
Thanks,
Stan

 

[ggoode.sa]

If you only need MIDI Note On and Note Off message and can do a little electronic DIY (soldering wires and diodes) then Midi Gadgets Boutique products are a better option for those in Europe. Jordan is also very helpful with custom solutions and tips for getting things working the way that you want them to. I have used his boards on seven console conversions so far with great success.

GrahamG

 

[HOW]

Hello Graham,
If transpose is desired (+5 to -7) with a rotary knob like Allen Organ, expression input by either a potentiometer or voltage source (one per division), and separate midi output connectors per division, midi channel select (ch 1-8) the Hlabs product will do the trick - that is why the price is somewhat higher.
Best regards,
Stan

 

[ggoode.sa]

Hi Stan,

I think the value of the Hlabs products is that are specifically made with existing console conversions in mind, and so are easy to add to those types of consoles. Midi Gadget Boutique boards also offer potentiometer and configurable channel select, etc. but are more 'generic' than the Hlabs and may be more work to integrate.

Kind regards,
GrahamG

 

[HOW]

Hello Graham,
Do you know if it is contrary to forum rules for a company to offer discounts to forum members?
Thanks,
Stan