MyOrgan and GrandOrgue MIDI stops control question

[HOW]

I develop MIDI controllers for various uses. Recently I was experimenting with MyOrgan and the "sister" GrandOrgue to test the midi controller I developed only to discover that the stop control uses note on messages but once turned on, the only way to turn off is to send a general program change message which turns all the stops off. Since MyOrgan is basically Hauptwerk 1 I assume that these 3 virtual organs do not allow good stop control. I would think that a particular stop would be turned on by it's associated note number and midi channel number and be turned off by the same note off message. Am I missing something? Thank you in advance.

[L.Palo]

Hi!

GrandOrgue (and MyOrgan) stop control from MIDI is operated by note on/off messages, usually on channel 5 (but that's configurable). (There are however ways to use program change messages to control the stop state see for instance the thread on that here.)

A stop is on as long as the note on message (for the corresponding note that the stop is connected to) is sent and as soon as a note off message is sent the stop will be turned off.

You can try it with a standard MIDI keyboard to verify it yourself. I guess that your controller doesn't really send a note off message when the stop should go off.

Unfortunately at the moment stop control by MIDI is somewhat limited but that's likely to change with future versions of GrandOrgue. (For instance one would like the feature to ignore note off messages and only consider note on messages that would change the state of the stop alternatingly on or off when received)

Kind regards

Lars P

[HOW]

Hello Lars,
Thank you for your response. I do in fact use note on 9n and note off 8n but I just discovered that for
some strange reason, the test computer and Tascam USB sound "card" is not responding to any of the
midi note off messages so that explains my problem.
Best regards,
Stan

PS I just discovered that the 3rd byte (velocity) had been omitted from the software- even tho the velocity value is not used for (stop changes), the byte still needed to be there or else the first byte of the note off message will be read as the 3rd (note on) byte by most midi devices.

[Ghekorg7]

Hi Stan, and welcome to the forum,

Just for the history, as I got also HW1.23, this one is very different from MyOrgan and our beloved GrandOrgue. They just use HW1 format .organ files and some other things in common, but they're not the same apps.

HW1 has no Asio support, just DirectSound and latency is evident. But has this "all stops off" when hitting Control+A. This is not to be found on MO, GO. Uses extencively computer's keyboard shortcuts for stop change displaying the letter next to the stop. Also its midi machine is better on assigning stuff. It also loads some sets that cannot be opened in MO/GO, for various reasons, mainly because the then HW1 developers made mistakes in .organ files. HW1 was forgiving them, MO/GO not ! he he

It's a long story and cannot be full covered here, though I just gave you some taste :-)

Have fun
Panos

[HOW]

Hello Panos,
Thank you for the information. I have been using the US-122 and equivalent Tascam USB external sound
cards which seem to have no latency problems. The only problem I've run into (other than the notes off problem now solved) is distortion with a larger number of stops enabled. I may need to use a wave editor to change the level of each note of each stop. If anyone is interested, we are developing a startup/ shutdown keyboard replacement so the PC running GO & MO will boot up and shut down automatically without any keystrokes. This is useful for those using actual organ consoles and do not wish to bother with computer controls.
Regards,
Stan

[L.Palo]

Hi!

Good that the note off problem is fixed!

Don't edit the audio files! Instead lower the volume in GO! I mostly end up at values of around 15 to 20 or so, depending on what set's loaded. If deemed necessary it's also possible to adjust the overall AmplitudeLevel in the .organ file.

Kind regards

Lars P

[HOW]

Hello Lars,
Thank you for that!
I have a "complete" set of organ pipes from a pipe organ we removed from an old church in downtown
Denver, Colorado. They were converting it into condos but keeping the outside intact. This instrument was built around 1910 or thereabouts. The samples for GO seem to be a few seconds long. When listening to the wave files from some of the "free" organ samples there are usually small clicks at the start of the release. In the past I had assumed that the wave sample would have a rapid fad out while the release is rapidly faded in (much like a panning effect from one channel to another). Apparently this is not the case. So my question is: What are the sample parameters regarding the length and ending of a particular wave file?
Also, so far as the bit width I have found that (for full signal level) 8 bits is fine except the signal to noise ratio is somewhat degraded. And if Harrison Labs Traveling Wave Generator is used, a very short audio sample can be used.
Finally, if a software reverb is used in stead of a hardware unit, doesn't that have a profound affect on the polyphony since more computer processing power would be required?
Thanks in advance.
Best regards,
Stan

[Ghekorg7]

Hi Stan.

Indeed, lower the main volume on GO !
This app is so powerfull, in some sets I go down to....2 !!! (When connecting my lap straight to my powered studio monitors).
Also open the .organ file with a pad and lower the overall amplitude of the set. This, 99% , is set at 100. So at 80 you'll be fine.

GO uses 16/44.100 rates for the samples. They must be long enough, at least 6 to 7 sec before release.
This must be for better loop points and more closely to physical sound of the pipes (air plays games....).
Also care must be taken to mark preciesely the release start point with a marker.

Here I'm using, for dry sets (and I believe it's better than wet ones, unless you got something like the Roquemaure set for example) the following setup and it works great with high polyphony. No loss:

Jack 1.9.8/GOv2/Lexicon PCM native with Savihostnk > straight to Asio4All v2.1 > to my onboard RealTeck soundcard > to my analogue or sometimes SPDIF out in stereo. Polyphony on GO is set to 4.096 (!) and even the Litomysl (almost 3GB) set it doesn't reach this maximum.
So, no loss at all. Intel dualcore T4400 at 2.2GHz, 4GB ram win7 64bit.
Reverberate LE with Savihostnk is the best free convolution reverb to use in a setup like this. I've just changed taste for Lexicon as I think is more controllable than the convolution ones (I also got SIR2, Reverberate full and HOF Origami) and feels more physical to my ears even against real Impulse responces.....

Best
Panos

[HOW]

Hello Panos,
Thank you for this valuable information. Can you elaborate on the marker? Using Nero wave editor to look at a GO/MO wave I could not see any visible marker. Is this placed at zero crossing location?
Best regards,
Stan

[Ghekorg7]

Hi Stan,

No, marker is placed exactly where the note is released, so you get the release sample when play with the set.
I use Sony Sourceforge 9 for this, but as this is commercial (but the best....) before, I used (and now, sometimes to doublecheck) Wavosaur for this. It's free and good. Get it now and install it !
If you open an existing wav file for GO you'll see the two loop points and near the end of the sample the marker line.
Needs a bit experience on this (trial and error, or try to listen and see the exact release point) and then you go on easy.
But the whole procedure is time consuming.
Imagine how long needed to release a big 24~40 stop organ set....

Hope that helped a bit.
Best
Panos

[HOW]

Hello Panos,
Very good I see what you mean - it all makes sense. The loop points would be carefully chosen.
Thanks ever so much for the help. What a great wave editing software!
Best regards,
Stan

[HOW]

Hello Lars,
Do you know the person(s) that developed or wrote the code for My Organ and would it be possible to make contact?
Best regards,
Stan

[ggoode.sa]

Hi Stan,

The person who wrote the original MyOrgan code released it as an OpenSource project and then gave the MyOrgan name and CopyRight of that code to Milan Digital Audio. A new OpenSource project was created by a group of people who wanted to continue the development of the code for Linux (and maintain Windows) - and that is the GrandOrgue Project. See http://sourceforge.net/projects/ourorgan/ for the SourceForge project of GrandOrgue. There is currently a team of developers who work in their free time.

Kind regards,
GrahamG

[Ghekorg7]

Hi Stan,

There's no contact with Kloria publishing any more. Case closed.
But,
Why use MyOrgan, even GrandOrgue v.0.1?
There's the v.0.2 of GrandOrgue with many improvements and better handling than the older two apps.
Go as Graham linked and get this v.0.2 version. Also, yes, there are gifted people workin' on v.0.3..... he he, will be a helluva softwere !

Best
Panos

PS. The only thing I missed in GO v.2, IMHO, is the smooth type 1 stop image present on MO and GOv1. This would make look better some sets with smooth appearance, so the stops won't stand out so bold.

[HOW]

Hello Graham & Panos,
Thank you for your kind replies. I have tested GO v.2 and it works very well and sounds very impressive also. The reason for my question regarding the code is that I am curious about how the release can be enabled at most any point of the address of the wave (or period) and you hear no clicks. Does the software wait to enable the release when the amplitude is close the the same as the start of the release point?

Since I am using a 4 manual Allen console and Hlabs Midi stops and keying converters, I don't use a display except for programming initially so
the virtual console display in unnecessary. I use separate home built PCs for each division. That is why I wish to sample and program some new stops. You can see this project on Utube at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnPqM..._order&list=UL
This is a growing experiment.

Once again, thank you for all your help!
Best regards,
Stan

PS I wonder if by modifying the code, it would fit on a PIC processor such as the 18F series to simply play a single stop with no display - it would be programmed only to input the midi, output a monaural, mpxed stereo, or pwm audio stream 48khz by 12 to 16 its wide, and interface with a flash memory? I would be willing to pay to have this done.