• Welcome to the Pipe Organ Forum! This is a part of the open community Magle International Music Forums focused on pipe organs (also known as "church organs"), organists, organ music and related topics.

    This forum is intended to be a friendly place where technically advanced organists and beginners (or even non-organists) can feel comfortable having discussions and asking questions. We learn by reading and asking questions, and it is hoped that the beginners (or non-organists) will feel free to ask even the simplest questions, and that the more advanced organists will patiently answer these questions. On the other hand, we encourage complex, technical discussions of technique, music, organ-building, etc. The opinions and observations of a diverse group of people from around the world should prove to be interesting and stimulating to all of us.

    As pipe organ discussions can sometimes become lively, it should be pointed out that this is an open forum. Statements made here are the opinion of the poster, and not necessarily that of the forum itself, its administrator, or its moderators.

    In order to post a new topic - or reply to existing ones - you may join and become a member by clicking on Register New User. It's completely free and only requires a working email address (in order to confirm your registration - it will never be given away!). We strive to make this a friendly and informative forum for anyone interested in pipe organs and organ music.

    (Note: If you wish to link to and promote your own website please read this thread first.)

    Many kind regards
    smile.gif

    Frederik Magle
    Administrator

    Krummhorn
    Co-Administrator

the first declared organist

John Watt

Member
After posting in the music instruments forum and consulting the source,
it seemed best to prostrate myself here. I was commenting on Jubal being
the first named musician on earth, in Genesis. The Holy King James Bible
says he played harp and organ. I can't begin to imagine what can be an
organ in this context, except hollowed out hand instruments. Am I too
swamped by keyboard high tech to imagine something less? Maybe.
Because I just took it for granted the first named musician would be a drummer,
a form of long distance communication and dancing, percussion, if nothing else.

Even the forty thousand year old flute that was mentioned here over two years ago
came to mind. Quite a few members here have cathedral experience, something I'm
so far away from. I can parse the name Jubal and imagine the relationship to future
tribal activity, but not the instruments.

Is it mythery, or is it memory?
 

Krummhorn

Administrator
Staff member
ADMINISTRATOR
. . . I can't begin to imagine what can be an
organ in this context, except hollowed out hand instruments. Am I too
swamped by keyboard high tech to imagine something less?

The first organ, I believe, was the Hydraulis (~465 BCE) considered to be the precursor of the pipe organ we know today.

Kh :cool:
 

John Watt

Member
That's something I never saw before, very interesting.
I'm wondering how big it would have to be for Niagara Falls.

But please, Krummhorn, do you actually see this as the first organ?

Without wanting to be religious, just thinking semantics, look at Jubal.
If Jubal is one of the first beings to propogate as a Jewish tribe,
I can see descendants using Ju as in Jew and bal as in Baal, tribal evolution.
Those words weren't mentioned yet in the Bible, before Jubal.

These people were on the move, and the water organ isn't portable.
How does a bladder you squeeze for pipes, like bagpipes, fit into your scenario?
 

Krummhorn

Administrator
Staff member
ADMINISTRATOR
From what I know about the Hydraulis is that it was, at first, capable of playing only one note. It was a secular instrument by all accounts and often carried into battle to frighten the enemy!

I think it got pegged as the 'first organ' only because of the mechanical way that pressure was built up in order for this instrument to produce any sound.
 

Ghekorg7 (Ret)

Rear Admiral Appassionata (Ret)
Hi,

It is known and certain that Hydraulis was the first organ on Earth invented by Ktesibious in Greece. There's a speciment in ancient Greek town Dion in Macedonia, in the museum. I'll try to send a picture later today.
Then Romans took it and use it and in Byzantine era the first pipe organ was build and evolved as we know it today. Orthodox church didn't wanted it in churches, so, our "poor" emperor gave one as a gift to the father of Charles the Great in France and kept the organ for cosmic (popular) use. The French knew what to do next.... !
Still tryin' to find Byzantine popular pieces for the organ....

Here you can find more info ( I didn't link you to Greek sites cause I don't trust Google translations......) :

http://www.archaeologychannel.org/hydraulisint.html

Interesting thread, I'm lookin' forward for more.
Drums were the first instruments no doubt, In Jewish theological books are not to be mentioned as at the time considered as inferior mentaly, instruments :)

Best
Panos
 

Pat17

New member
The Holy King James Bible says he played harp and organ.

Unfortunately, the meaning of "organ" was not very clear in early days, so the translation might not be fully accurate. In latin, organ comes from "organum"...

An organum is any one of a number of musical instruments which were the forerunners of the organ.
The name comes from the Latin organum, meaning any tool in general or any musical instrument in particular (or an organ of the body), which in turn came from the Greek organon, with similar meanings, itself derived from ergon and so meaning something by which a task is accomplished. The name organum in turn gave rise to the modern everyday term organ


Source: Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organum_(musical_instrument)

It is known and certain that Hydraulis was the first organ on Earth invented by Ktesibious in Greece.

If Ktesibios was Greek indeed, the instrument itself was invented in Alexandria, Egypt, where he was by then at the service of the Ptolemaic dynasty.
 

Ghekorg7 (Ret)

Rear Admiral Appassionata (Ret)
Hi Pat !
Long time no.... talk :)

You're not sayin' Ktesibious was an Egyptian, no?
Alexamdria and the whole Egypt at the time was under Hellenic domination. Ptolemeus the 1st was brother of Alexander the Great. The whole dynasty was Hellenic 'till Kleopatra (the last of them all).

So Hydraulis was an Hellenic invention. Ktesibious as a pioneer mathematician was a master of the properties of the air among many things.
Dion is a magical place, I've been there many times, also admired first hand the older "organ" in the world.

Here's another good link on the matter :

http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/Ctesibius1.htm

have a good look on the other links this site gives at the bottom. There's a video of an hydraulis reconstruction.

and here see many photos from Dion's museum speciments :

http://plykogiannis.blogspot.com/2010/12/archaeological-museum-of-dion.html

It's a shame we didn't keep this tradition through the ages. If so now we would probably have many many organs here..... :-(

The French King was better on reinforcing his will against the church, as also there didn't wanted any instrument in the churches, just the voices (as here).

Best
Panos

PS. from other Greek site I read that older of the instruments were the plucked string instruments. Older that the flutes.......
 

John Watt

Member
Wow! There's a whole new world of musical history and instruments in those links.
Scottish bagpipes were originally weapons of war also.
If you heard highlanders coming at you playing them, they were willing to shed blood.
That might not sound like much of a weapon, a warning system and blood curdling motivation,
but considering that fact that the line "I fart in your general direction" was also warfare,
it couldn't get much worse, even though it did.
The worst weapon Scotsmen had was lifting the kilt and waggling to taunt offending armies.

I didn't look to study, but I'm thinking pan pipes evolved into mechanical ones.
And I'm wondering if what we know as a flute ever had a bladder for sustain.

I can identify with another comment about inferior intellect, something Scots people were accused of.
Emperor Hadrian's line about his wall across England was Scots didn't understand they were conquered.
The Vatican: down to an official population of less than 40,000, only a small city.
The Scots: you're reading the language now using more than one Watt.
 

Ghekorg7 (Ret)

Rear Admiral Appassionata (Ret)
Hi John,

Now you touched another issue here !
What is the link with Scotts and Greeks ? Bag Pipes !!! we got a lot of them here.
As far as I know, there are many other , like Swedish ones !

Maybe we are one after all !!
 

GoneBaroque

New member
Would Jaromir Weinberger's Opera Schwanda the Bagpiper indicate a Czech familiarity with some form of Bagpipe? While the most familiar is the Highland or Scottish pipe, the Irish and Northumberian versions are somewhat different.The same logic could apply to other countries.
 

Ghekorg7 (Ret)

Rear Admiral Appassionata (Ret)
YES.

So far I have discovered the following types of bag pipes, beyond Scottish and Greek (Gaida & Tsamboona) ones :

Galician Gaita
Swedish Saeckpipa
Bock (?)
Flemish Bagpipe
Shepherd's pipe (?)
Bohemian Dudy

The last one maybe's the one you're refering to.

There are many ways to get sound from pipes and the ultimate ,compex and great solution is the pipe organ of course.
 
Last edited:

GoneBaroque

New member
It may be, I'll have to do some research. The Irish or uilleann pipes are different from most others. They are not blown but are rested on the lap and pumped by a bellows strapped around the waist and right arm . They have a two octave range including sharps and flats and emit a sweeter, softer sound. Another form of bagpipe is the Italian Zampogna. Variations are actually found throughout much of Europe, South and Southwest Asia and North Africa. There is definitely a relationship to the greatest instrument of all, the Pipe organ.

Here is a link to a fairly exhaustive list if you are interested.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bagpipes
 

Ghekorg7 (Ret)

Rear Admiral Appassionata (Ret)
Hi Rob,

Thanks for the link. Indeed the list is long.....................>>>>>>>>>>>

Glad they correctly inform about Greek types, so I presume the whole page is full correct. Also they say Dudy as the Czech type. So maybe is this you're sayin' about.

Yes, I believe too, bag pipes was a very simple way of gettin' an ..."organ" sound, louder than recorders as the air in the bag blows harder with the aid of the right arm.
And the more we search, the more I believe that all people are one and only one kind.... humans, we just have different approaches/variations to the main theme.
 

John Watt

Member
I'm still looking here myself, nothing new to add, but very happy with what I see.

Considering the evolution of organs, I'm wondering if a bag-pipe was ever made of whale bladder.
 

GoneBaroque

New member
Hi Rob,

Thanks for the link. Indeed the list is long.....................>>>>>>>>>>>

Glad they correctly inform about Greek types, so I presume the whole page is full correct. Also they say Dudy as the Czech type. So maybe is this you're sayin' about.

Yes, I believe too, bag pipes was a very simple way of gettin' an ..."organ" sound, louder than recorders as the air in the bag blows harder with the aid of the right arm.
And the more we search, the more I believe that all people are one and only one kind.... humans, we just have different approaches/variations to the main theme.

You are 100% correct. All people are the same no matter what their variations may be.
 

Pat17

New member
You're not sayin' Ktesibious was an Egyptian, no?

Nope indeed... He was Greek. :p

It's just you mentioned "the first organ on Earth invented by Ktesibious in Greece".

I only stated the place was not fully accurate, as it was in Egypt and not in Greece the instrument was invented.

The French King was better on reinforcing his will against the church, as also there didn't wanted any instrument in the churches, just the voices (as here).

Still it took time to make them enter into churches, something like almost two centuries...

If we look back at history, actually the organ stayed longer out of churches (from 300 BC to approc. 1000 AD) than inside (since then...).
 
Last edited:

Ghekorg7 (Ret)

Rear Admiral Appassionata (Ret)
Ok Pat, agreed in all.

Best
Panos

PS, indeed much more time outside the church, add some time from 20th century where many organs reside in concert halls ect like the one we got in Athens (BIG)
 

John Watt

Member
Considering that gypsies are sometimes seen as being the descendants of Egyptians,
and that gypsy music is always considered passionate and technically involved,
the thought of ancient Egyptian music is very entertaining.
I don't even have an idea of scales or musical instruments, considering how detailed their artwork is.
Maybe the next great organ should be built in Karnak, with reed style columns.
 
Top