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Thread: the first declared organist

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    Rear Admiral Appassionata John Watt's Avatar
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    the first declared organist

    After posting in the music instruments forum and consulting the source,
    it seemed best to prostrate myself here. I was commenting on Jubal being
    the first named musician on earth, in Genesis. The Holy King James Bible
    says he played harp and organ. I can't begin to imagine what can be an
    organ in this context, except hollowed out hand instruments. Am I too
    swamped by keyboard high tech to imagine something less? Maybe.
    Because I just took it for granted the first named musician would be a drummer,
    a form of long distance communication and dancing, percussion, if nothing else.

    Even the forty thousand year old flute that was mentioned here over two years ago
    came to mind. Quite a few members here have cathedral experience, something I'm
    so far away from. I can parse the name Jubal and imagine the relationship to future
    tribal activity, but not the instruments.

    Is it mythery, or is it memory?

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    Administrator Krummhorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Watt View Post
    . . . I can't begin to imagine what can be an
    organ in this context, except hollowed out hand instruments. Am I too
    swamped by keyboard high tech to imagine something less?
    The first organ, I believe, was the Hydraulis (~465 BCE) considered to be the precursor of the pipe organ we know today.

    Kh

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    Rear Admiral Appassionata John Watt's Avatar
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    That's something I never saw before, very interesting.
    I'm wondering how big it would have to be for Niagara Falls.

    But please, Krummhorn, do you actually see this as the first organ?

    Without wanting to be religious, just thinking semantics, look at Jubal.
    If Jubal is one of the first beings to propogate as a Jewish tribe,
    I can see descendants using Ju as in Jew and bal as in Baal, tribal evolution.
    Those words weren't mentioned yet in the Bible, before Jubal.

    These people were on the move, and the water organ isn't portable.
    How does a bladder you squeeze for pipes, like bagpipes, fit into your scenario?

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    Administrator Krummhorn's Avatar
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    From what I know about the Hydraulis is that it was, at first, capable of playing only one note. It was a secular instrument by all accounts and often carried into battle to frighten the enemy!

    I think it got pegged as the 'first organ' only because of the mechanical way that pressure was built up in order for this instrument to produce any sound.

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    Rear Admiral Appassionata (Ret) Ghekorg7 (Ret)'s Avatar
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    Hi,

    It is known and certain that Hydraulis was the first organ on Earth invented by Ktesibious in Greece. There's a speciment in ancient Greek town Dion in Macedonia, in the museum. I'll try to send a picture later today.
    Then Romans took it and use it and in Byzantine era the first pipe organ was build and evolved as we know it today. Orthodox church didn't wanted it in churches, so, our "poor" emperor gave one as a gift to the father of Charles the Great in France and kept the organ for cosmic (popular) use. The French knew what to do next.... !
    Still tryin' to find Byzantine popular pieces for the organ....

    Here you can find more info ( I didn't link you to Greek sites cause I don't trust Google translations......) :

    http://www.archaeologychannel.org/hydraulisint.html

    Interesting thread, I'm lookin' forward for more.
    Drums were the first instruments no doubt, In Jewish theological books are not to be mentioned as at the time considered as inferior mentaly, instruments :-)

    Best
    Panos
    *It's like a fight with women, which always ends in .... bed.*
    F.Kafka, Aphorisms.

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    Rear Admiral Appassionata (Ret) Ghekorg7 (Ret)'s Avatar
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    OK, I found it.
    Enjoy !
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails the first declared organist-dion654a_ancient_organ-jpg  
    *It's like a fight with women, which always ends in .... bed.*
    F.Kafka, Aphorisms.

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    Midshipman, Forte Pat17's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Watt View Post
    The Holy King James Bible says he played harp and organ.
    Unfortunately, the meaning of "organ" was not very clear in early days, so the translation might not be fully accurate. In latin, organ comes from "organum"...

    An organum is any one of a number of musical instruments which were the forerunners of the organ.
    The name comes from the Latin organum, meaning any tool in general or any musical instrument in particular (or an organ of the body), which in turn came from the Greek organon, with similar meanings, itself derived from ergon and so meaning something by which a task is accomplished. The name organum in turn gave rise to the modern everyday term organ


    Source: Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organum...cal_instrument)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghekorg7 View Post
    It is known and certain that Hydraulis was the first organ on Earth invented by Ktesibious in Greece.
    If Ktesibios was Greek indeed, the instrument itself was invented in Alexandria, Egypt, where he was by then at the service of the Ptolemaic dynasty.

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    Rear Admiral Appassionata (Ret) Ghekorg7 (Ret)'s Avatar
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    Hi Pat !
    Long time no.... talk :-)

    You're not sayin' Ktesibious was an Egyptian, no?
    Alexamdria and the whole Egypt at the time was under Hellenic domination. Ptolemeus the 1st was brother of Alexander the Great. The whole dynasty was Hellenic 'till Kleopatra (the last of them all).

    So Hydraulis was an Hellenic invention. Ktesibious as a pioneer mathematician was a master of the properties of the air among many things.
    Dion is a magical place, I've been there many times, also admired first hand the older "organ" in the world.

    Here's another good link on the matter :

    http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/Ctesibius1.htm

    have a good look on the other links this site gives at the bottom. There's a video of an hydraulis reconstruction.

    and here see many photos from Dion's museum speciments :

    http://plykogiannis.blogspot.com/201...m-of-dion.html

    It's a shame we didn't keep this tradition through the ages. If so now we would probably have many many organs here..... :-(

    The French King was better on reinforcing his will against the church, as also there didn't wanted any instrument in the churches, just the voices (as here).

    Best
    Panos

    PS. from other Greek site I read that older of the instruments were the plucked string instruments. Older that the flutes.......
    *It's like a fight with women, which always ends in .... bed.*
    F.Kafka, Aphorisms.

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    Rear Admiral Appassionata John Watt's Avatar
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    Wow! There's a whole new world of musical history and instruments in those links.
    Scottish bagpipes were originally weapons of war also.
    If you heard highlanders coming at you playing them, they were willing to shed blood.
    That might not sound like much of a weapon, a warning system and blood curdling motivation,
    but considering that fact that the line "I fart in your general direction" was also warfare,
    it couldn't get much worse, even though it did.
    The worst weapon Scotsmen had was lifting the kilt and waggling to taunt offending armies.

    I didn't look to study, but I'm thinking pan pipes evolved into mechanical ones.
    And I'm wondering if what we know as a flute ever had a bladder for sustain.

    I can identify with another comment about inferior intellect, something Scots people were accused of.
    Emperor Hadrian's line about his wall across England was Scots didn't understand they were conquered.
    The Vatican: down to an official population of less than 40,000, only a small city.
    The Scots: you're reading the language now using more than one Watt.

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    Rear Admiral Appassionata (Ret) Ghekorg7 (Ret)'s Avatar
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    Hi John,

    Now you touched another issue here !
    What is the link with Scotts and Greeks ? Bag Pipes !!! we got a lot of them here.
    As far as I know, there are many other , like Swedish ones !

    Maybe we are one after all !!
    *It's like a fight with women, which always ends in .... bed.*
    F.Kafka, Aphorisms.

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    Commodore con Forza GoneBaroque's Avatar
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    Would Jaromir Weinberger's Opera Schwanda the Bagpiper indicate a Czech familiarity with some form of Bagpipe? While the most familiar is the Highland or Scottish pipe, the Irish and Northumberian versions are somewhat different.The same logic could apply to other countries.
    The only reason for time is to prevent everything from happening at once - Albert Einstein

    You know you have reached Middle Age when it takes you longer to rest up than it did to get tired.

    If it sounds good; it is good

    Rob

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    Rear Admiral Appassionata (Ret) Ghekorg7 (Ret)'s Avatar
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    YES.

    So far I have discovered the following types of bag pipes, beyond Scottish and Greek (Gaida & Tsamboona) ones :

    Galician Gaita
    Swedish Saeckpipa
    Bock (?)
    Flemish Bagpipe
    Shepherd's pipe (?)
    Bohemian Dudy

    The last one maybe's the one you're refering to.

    There are many ways to get sound from pipes and the ultimate ,compex and great solution is the pipe organ of course.
    Last edited by Ghekorg7 (Ret); Oct-02-2011 at 14:21. Reason: typos
    *It's like a fight with women, which always ends in .... bed.*
    F.Kafka, Aphorisms.

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    Commodore con Forza GoneBaroque's Avatar
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    It may be, I'll have to do some research. The Irish or uilleann pipes are different from most others. They are not blown but are rested on the lap and pumped by a bellows strapped around the waist and right arm . They have a two octave range including sharps and flats and emit a sweeter, softer sound. Another form of bagpipe is the Italian Zampogna. Variations are actually found throughout much of Europe, South and Southwest Asia and North Africa. There is definitely a relationship to the greatest instrument of all, the Pipe organ.

    Here is a link to a fairly exhaustive list if you are interested.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bagpipes
    The only reason for time is to prevent everything from happening at once - Albert Einstein

    You know you have reached Middle Age when it takes you longer to rest up than it did to get tired.

    If it sounds good; it is good

    Rob

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    Rear Admiral Appassionata (Ret) Ghekorg7 (Ret)'s Avatar
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    Hi Rob,

    Thanks for the link. Indeed the list is long.....................>>>>>>>>>>>

    Glad they correctly inform about Greek types, so I presume the whole page is full correct. Also they say Dudy as the Czech type. So maybe is this you're sayin' about.

    Yes, I believe too, bag pipes was a very simple way of gettin' an ..."organ" sound, louder than recorders as the air in the bag blows harder with the aid of the right arm.
    And the more we search, the more I believe that all people are one and only one kind.... humans, we just have different approaches/variations to the main theme.
    *It's like a fight with women, which always ends in .... bed.*
    F.Kafka, Aphorisms.

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    Rear Admiral Appassionata John Watt's Avatar
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    I'm still looking here myself, nothing new to add, but very happy with what I see.

    Considering the evolution of organs, I'm wondering if a bag-pipe was ever made of whale bladder.

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