Grand Orgue : Creating Mixtures and more, free odf

[Ghekorg7]

Greetings to all GrandOrgue fans !

There are times when we got a great sample set but with few ranks, most times without any kinda mixtures or even without any pedal ranks.
Borrowing ranks from another set is a solution, but will not have the same sound character, especially if the set in question is based on a historic organ.

Working with GrandOrgue from 2009 onwards I came up with different solutions, one being the classic build of a mixture by adding its registers one by one from single ranks as individual stops placed on screen in the same position, so they will go on and off as a single stop.
Easy example is a full Sexquialtera II where we can use a 2'2/3 and a 1'3/5 together, even if we got just 8',4' and 2' ranks in the division.
From the 4' will come the 2'2/3 (pipe001 will be 043-G) and from 2' the 1'3/5 (pipe001 will be 040-E).
The compass of the ranks is a serious factor here, as for example if there's just a 49er there will be missing notes(pipes). Best if there are full 61notes, so we can have a good 49er or a 54. Tune and Re-sampling was the solution back then, leading to more apps involved, looping and marking(cue) releases too.

These limits are now gone with the new v0306 of GO. We can do much things without any other app and just staying in GO.

I uploaded an example for all to test and discuss, a folder containing some odf and sub folders for the placement of the samples' files.

I used a well known Dom Bedos demo set as basis, then I created a big Fourniture V and a big Cymbale IV both in DomBedos style, also a Tierce, a Flute 4, Larigot and four Pedal stops (16,8,4 and Bombarde). 9 more ranks added ! Possibly a Quinte, a Shifflet 1' and a Clairon could be added too, even a Montre 16'.

All can work with original tuning/temperament and with any of the ones offered in GrandOrgue 0306. This needs some serious amount of work in the odf to "tell" GO what to do.
Main commands/Functions are the PipeXTuning= , PipeXPitchCorrection= , PipeXHarmonicNumber= and in some cases the PipeXAttenuation=

The above sample set hasn't got a 037-C# pipe sample in all ranks and this was an opportunity to create it without sampling ect.
Also the set is tuned A=415Hz and 4 perfect thirds.
Perfect for experiments...and... discussion !
I used the 036-C like this:

Pipe001=.\Bourdon\036-C.wav
Pipe002Tuning=+86,000000
Pipe002=.\Bourdon\036-C.wav
Pipe002PitchCorrection=-86
Pipe003=.\Bourdon\038-D.wav ect

From the above example we see the tuning before and the pitch correction being after .wav file and minus the same amount of added tuning.
This way it works as 037-C# in the original organ tuning/temperament and also as 037-C# with alternate temperaments.
Using just the tuning worked OK in original temperament but sounded 036-C in alternatives.
Different approach is when lowering the pitch, for example going from 8' to 16'. See the odf
The +86 value instead of +100 (one semitone up) is because of the original tuning/temperament of the used DomBedos set.

GO devs can come up with a pro explanation of this, but anyway this is how I tried and it works here.

Another good use of Pitch Correction is when building the mixtures where the same pipe will sound in the next octave in a drop.
To avoid the "phase effect" I "detuned"-pitch corrected in -002, -004 or +001 ect each repeated pipe in every drop and rang.
Constant testing with reload set was done.... still need improvement I believe

Tuning function of GO also can be used in great effect for creating Celeste, Italian Voce Humana ect ranks.
My usual setting is -11,000000 and does a good chorus like effect.
Attenuation function needed for balancing.

Also, I used just the main .wav files of the demo set, without any releases, GO plays them as a dry set. These releases can be added of course if one wants to, in the odf, as described in the related thread in this forum.

How to use the uploaded files.
Download the DomBedos demo set, place the related wav files in the respective folders in the uploaded test set folder.
Bourdon (the Bourdon8), Cromorne, Doublette, Montre (the Montre4), Nazard, Prestant, Principal (the Montre8), Quarte, Soubasse (the Bourdon 16) and Trompette (the trompette en chamades). The Images folder contains an image from DomBedos book for decoration.
Use your favourite add reverb technique, like Jack or ReaRouteAsio for example.

I tested with GOv0306 commit 1026 x64 in a net book 10' win7 x64 with Intel Celeron single core 1.3GHz and 2GB ram.
Works.
And loads 1065.5MB in 16/44100, lossless compression ON.

There are two more organ models in the folder, a choir and a chapel, with less stops and different mixtures, like a Fourniture II and a classic French Cymbale 3rgs and stop splits. These load less, for smaller systems. Try them too.

Of course this MixturesTestOrganSet will work with any samples placed in the folders, but care must be taken on tuning !

Also, this uploaded set (no samples) based on DomBedos demo, is provided for experimental/evaluation and testing purposes, to explore the many possibilities of the new GO software and for home/personal use only.
The odf files can be used with creative commons license and I hope will be helpful for all in creating many sets
I believe we can start an interesting discussion here too !

Enjoy and have fun !
Panos

[e9925248]

Your trick with placing two stops at the same location should not be used. The on click on two behaviour just works by chance.

The correct implementation for multi-rank stops is:
* Define the pipes as ranks (Rank999 section). The content is a subset of a stop section and put NumberOfRanks in the Organ section.
* In the stop section, specify NumberOfRanks and specifiy the Rank999* attributes instead of the Pipe999 attributes.

PS:
My last builds support Pipe999MIDIKeyNumber to allow a direct override of pitch information in the sample, so that you don't have to do tricks with the harmonic number.

PPS:
GO has no PipeXAttenuation

[Ghekorg7]

Hi 'e' , thanks for feedback !!

Correction (my mistake...tsk tsk) : I meant PipeXAmplitude , not attenuation (ooops) as it is on odf (Bombarde rank), sorry for any problems raised :-(

Multi ranks....

Yep, it's a trick, but what to do... I didn't know else (is there on the help file?), but it works.
The main problem with this trick is when the user wants to reference a midi controller to control the mixture stop : using the listen for event will work on the last stop and leave the rest intact.
Here I'm placing every mixture part stop in different place, I perform listen for event (midi learn....) on every one with the same controller button and then I re-position them to the same position. It works, but eats time....

I have to explore in depth these new instructions from you on the matter. Is there an example odf from anyone ?
Though I believe I will do it OK :-D

I will now go to get your latest build . I tried yesterday when I first saw your post, but my connection stopped suddenly do to maintenance of the netcafe 's equipment..:-(
I'm still on holidays :-)

see you soon

[e9925248]

Yep, it's a trick, but what to do... I didn't know else (is there on the help file?), but it works.

There is no how-to, but the reference in the help covers all options.

Delivering the mouse click to multiple, overlapping elements is not an intended behaviour - I consider this as a (low priority) bug.

I have to explore in depth these new instructions from you on the matter. Is there an example odf from anyone ?

Barton. Lars wanted to do a mixture this way - maybe he has also an example.

[L.Palo]

Hi!

I'm sorry to answer so late, but unfortunately I've been much too busy...

Anyway, the solution I found to be working when creating a mutation stop from individual samples was to create one stop that's composed of multiple ranks.

The scharf in my new version of Kalvträsk (extended), hopefully not too far away to be released, will use this possibility. In the attached file the relevant parts of the Stop and Ranks can be seen.

PS. See Martins post earlier that you also need to specify the NumberOfRanks= in the [Organ] section.

Kind regards

Lars P

[Ghekorg7]

Hi Lars :-)

Thanks for feedback. Just got the text I will study too. I saw this Number of Ranks as Graham did on Barton. But there, ranks have the main samples and the tremulant ones, not combined stops, or better, samples from many other stops, to create a mixture.
I'm still workin' on it.

There's always the other way, easy for me, re-sample : Load all the relevant wav on Kontakt and record with a DAW each note for 6sec or so, then all the releases together, edit them and ready to be used as all the other "normal" stops. For example Mixtur III main and 3 releases folders.
The same result we'll have if using the Shortcircuit 1 free sampler.

It is still an open thread !

Best
Panos

[Ghekorg7]

Hi again,

Thanks to 'e' and Lars, also testing from Erik I got to understand what to do and finally reach my goal !

@ 'e' : your latest build is a charm ! No Asio yet, but it works soooo smooth (WASAPI here) and with its warnings about wrong or invalid settings showed me the right path. THANKS !

@ Lars : your text is an eye opener ! We reached the same tricks on some settings, but the way to use the ranks was the answer I was looking for ! THANKS !

@ Erik : your testing is always (and finally became..) essential for me. You warned me about issues on Linux not there on Windows, so you moved me to search deeper and seek for answers. THANKS !

So, I did an update on main DomBedos experimental and I know it will work on both OS, as 'e' 's last build does not give me any warnings now (hehehe).
I attach the new file for those who want it !
Hope you like it better now..

Best
Panos

PS. I say about Asio support mainly because of Jack and Reaper collaborations with GrandOrgue. It's sure that there are other users that stay well and sound with this latest build as is. Great work !

[JayR]

To extend this discussion further, I believe I recall reading that if the same set of pipe WAV files is referenced more than once in the ODF, GO will only load that set one time. Is that true? I am asking becuase I am hoping to duplicate an Unda Maris stop by using a Gadeckt tuned slightly flat and combine it with a Celeste that is already referenced in the organ definition.

Thank You,
Jay

[e9925248]

To extend this discussion further, I believe I recall reading that if the same set of pipe WAV files is referenced more than once in the ODF, GO will only load that set one time. Is that true? I am asking becuase I am hoping to duplicate an Unda Maris stop by using a Gadeckt tuned slightly flat and combine it with a Celeste that is already referenced in the organ definition.

No. But don't bother with these details. For the ODF it should not matter, if GO implements any memory saving technologies.