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Thread: Interesting things in the sciences

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    Chief assistant to the assistant chief JHC's Avatar
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    Interesting things in the sciences

    Do you believe randomness?
    Things that we do not understand often get explained away as some thing else in these two clips a complicated act of motion could be called random but if you understand all the physics it is entirely predictable not random.


    The same IMO would apply to the idea of free will

    Clip#1 Double Pendulum

    Clip #2 Triple Pendulum



    Last edited by JHC; Sep-15-2012 at 06:06.
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    Rear Admiral Appassionata John Watt's Avatar
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    Nothing is random, if you know where it's coming from and where it's going.
    Some would say everything throughout eternity has been preordained.
    That's what I'm working on now, being ordained eternally.

    This isn't far from synchronicity, which can be Biblical in nature.
    Sometimes, if you think about what you want, it can be there in front of you.
    It's more than just beautiful when my life keeps working that way.
    I was worried about someone, a young, left-handed guitarist, and another friend.
    When I woke up Sunday, I felt like I didn't know what to do, even though I have invitations from churches.
    So I just went outside and he was walking by, so we had a heart to heart talk.
    As soon as he left, the wife of a drummer friend, and another source of worried concern,
    came down the sidewalk, riding her electric chair, and we talked for a while.
    That was a very synchronistic way to start my Sunday, and I thought my social do-gooding could only be over,
    but another and new synchronistic event also changed my consciousness, and carried me through the day.

    Deciding what music you feel like listening to can be what it takes to create some synchronicity for you.
    I hope your whole day is in tune with you.

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    The system is not really predictable because it's behaviour depends so very closely on the initial situation: a very small change in the initial situation can be the cause of a completely different behaviour of the system. This is where fractals come from.

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    Admiral Honkenwheezenpooferspieler Corno Dolce's Avatar
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    Fractals, eh??? Would you care to expand on your reasoning on Fractals? Inquiring minds wish to know...If you find some difficulty, the people over at Wolfram can be very helpful...I very often have used their services...
    *If a man wants God to hear his prayer quickly, then before he prays for anything else, even his own soul, when he stands and stretches out his hands towards God, he must pray with all his heart for his enemies. Through this action God will hear everything that he asks* -Abba Zeno-

    *Protagoras: "Truth is subjective. What is true for you, and what is true for me, is true for me. Your opinion is true by virtue of its being your opinion."

    *Socrates: "My opinion is: Truth is absolute, not opinion, and that you are in absolute error. Since this is my opinion, then according to your philosophy you must grant that it is true."

    "Improvisational Art": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSxVO3EoCRM

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    Quote Originally Posted by Widukind View Post
    The system is not really predictable because it's behaviour depends so very closely on the initial situation: a very small change in the initial situation can be the cause of a completely different behaviour of the system. This is where fractals come from.


    So you do not agree that if you understand all the physics it is entirely predictable not random.
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    I will grant you, that the movenment of the double pendulum is computable if the initial situation is known exactly. But is it therefore predictable?
    Well, what exactly is predictable? Is the weather predictable? Yes, for a short time, more or less. Not for a longer period because the weather depends critically on the initial situation. You can't measure the initial situation good enough and therefore you can't predict the weather for a longer period.
    For the double pendulum it is more or less the same. This is explained better on Wikipedia.
    BTW thank you for the link to these demonstration, very nice to look at.

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    Duckmeister teddy's Avatar
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    I agree that everything is predictable, provided that you know the exact circumstances. But the slightest outside influence can make dramatic changes, and these influences can not usually be predicted. I became interested in fractals after reading the book, Jurassic Park. Something I mean to investigate further (probably when I retire)

    teddy
    Pining for the South of France

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    I can recommend "Gleick - Chaos, making a new science" (1987 !).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Widukind View Post
    The system is not really predictable because it's behaviour depends so very closely on the initial situation: a very small change in the initial situation can be the cause of a completely different behaviour of the system. This is where fractals come from.
    I think it is entirely predictable if as I said all the physics are understood as well as the inputs. I thought I had a layman's understanding of Fractals but can not understand where they enter the given situation I really would appreciate it if you could explain
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    Rear Admiral Appassionata John Watt's Avatar
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    When most people think of symphonies, one of the most memorable aspects of a symphonic concert is
    hearing the musicians tuning up, something you can equate with a "crash and burn" rock band song ending,
    another audio cliche.
    Maybe it's the microtones tuning generates that imprints it on the human mind as a unique musical experience.
    And I'm typing microtones as a musical fractal expression.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JHC View Post
    I think it is entirely predictable if as I said all the physics are understood as well as the inputs. I thought I had a layman's understanding of Fractals but can not understand where they enter the given situation I really would appreciate it if you could explain
    Googling on " "double pendulum" fractal " brings you to a scientific paper called The Double Pendulum Fractal by Jeremy S. Heyl. The mathematics is not really necessary. He calculates the time needed before the first flipover depending on the initial situation (position of both pendulums), and shows it in the figure. According to him this picture has fractal nature.
    I'm sorry I can't be more explicit but i"m not a mathematician myself (I'm a physicist).

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    I must have a look.
    A bit latter on:
    Very interesting I did a little searching on the www and found:
    Laplace’s prediction
     
    If we were to know the exact position of every particle in the universe then we could predict the future with certainty
    Therefore = no free will

    This is the point that in my simple mind I was making but I also found that unpredictability/Chaos is the science of the 21st century and questions this in a way that is beyond my understanding.
    I still do not understand and probably could not any way the connection to Fractals.


    What type of Physicist are you?
    Last edited by JHC; Sep-30-2012 at 05:44.
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    Rear Admiral Appassionata John Watt's Avatar
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    If a musician records spontaneously,
    and memorizes the recording for stage performances,
    is he being a spontaneous performer?

    Mankind will never be able to get outside our universe to look back at the body we inhabit.
    Sometimes free will is a lack of direction.

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    Very great wisdom JW is any music played the same way twice?
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    Duckmeister teddy's Avatar
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    I would say that it would be impossible to exactly duplicate a piece of music, even if it sounded to us as if it was being done. As we know even a change in humidity will effect the instrument (s) being played.

    teddy
    Pining for the South of France

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