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A Virtual Org'chestra

e9925248

New member
One approach would be to have a line VelocitySensitive=Y (or N, standard if not present) for the stops/ranks just like we have the Percussive effect. Then for those stops that have Y one need to not throw away the velocity information like (I think) GO does at the moment in the MIDI processing.
This yields to follow up questions:
* How should GO map a velocity to a sample volume?
* How does this integrate with the "second touch" velocity settings in GO?
* What if the volume changes during key press?
* What volume to use, if a sample is triggered multiple times (eg. via couplers and direct)?
* What to do, if a sample is triggered by a turning a coupler on, because a key is already pressed?

I'd like to have a feature to select which attack sample is played depending on the velocity of the attack (and not chosen randomly), but that's perhaps a bit far out...
I want to first discuss the above questions, before integrating this.
 

scush

New member
@martin

You have already made this possible with the multiple outputs.
All that is reqired is an external mixer and reverb unit.

THANKYOU.

john.
 

L.Palo

New member
Hi!

* How should GO map a velocity to a sample volume?
Velocity value is a single value for one single keypress. It should be possible to treat it's value somewhat like a swell pedal in regards to the actual sample volume (for that individual keypress). Or, let's say that the value would be converted into a percentage of the sample volume (velocity 127 = 100% sample volume). This will perhaps trigger a problem with some MIDI keyboards sending velocity 0 instead of Note off to save bandwidth, don't know exactly how widespread that problem is.

* What if the volume changes during key press?
If velocity is treated like another (scaled and weighted) multiple to the volume then any increase from another swell pedal or overall volume should work just like it should.

* What volume to use, if a sample is triggered multiple times (eg. via couplers and direct)?
I'd say that it should be the original keypress velocity that's transferred by the coupler (but ranks/stops without velocity sensitivity will play full sample volume nevertheless).

* What to do, if a sample is triggered by a turning a coupler on, because a key is already pressed?
Related to above, but yes it might be causing tricky effects at times. Still I think that it's the original (originating) keypress value that should at all times be passed on by the coupler.

I'm sorry that I'm unfamiliar with the second touch feature... Will have to read up on that.

Kind regards

Lars P
 

L.Palo

New member
Hi!

In regards to the original topic I can say that I've downloaded the set and played just a little with it. The result is very interesting indeed! Nice idea to put this together and thanks for sharing it!

There are some issues in the samples that should perhaps be addressed, like lot's of release clicks and poor NR in the Epinette. I'll try to put together a list of ideas for improvement when I have some time free.

I've actually thought of sampling other instruments (than organs) myself for an orchestral sampleset but since I'm quite busy at the time I'm happy to find this set to play with! Thanks a lot!

Kind regards

Lars P
 

scush

New member
[Rank010]
Name=Piano-MF
FirstMidiNoteNumber=36
NumberOfLogicalPipes=61
WindchestGroup=001
Percussive=N
velocity=y
MinVelocity=40
MaxVelocity=50
Gain=30

It's worth a guess I suppos
 

L.Palo

New member
Hi!

Yes, the MaxVelocity and MinVelocity is probably a good idea to be able to regulate how a certain sample will respond, perhaps also to have it not only on rank/stop level but also on pipe level Pipe999MaxVelocity= etc...

Anyway, it should be possible to see Max and Min as a percentage of sample volume (0 - 100) and then scale the volume according to the keypress velocity in between Max and Min. Still the other options of volume adjustments would apply too (AmplitudeLevel etc).

Of course this takes GO a bit beyond the traditional organ concept, but different kind of keyboard combinations exist in history (claviorganum), so it's not inappropriate at least!

Kind regards

Lars P
 

Ghekorg7 (Ret)

Rear Admiral Appassionata (Ret)
Velocity=Y
MinVelocity=0
MaxVelocity=127

Something like that yes, on both Stop/Rank level. On PipeNumberxxx I don't see the use..... Let's say we got a fortepiano rank. Why should set some samples not to respond on velocity?

Also if we got, let's say 3 samples of the same note, each one sampled at different velocity, we can get a more close to reality instrument and this Min - Max velocity is essential.

@Br CD.... )))))) piqued interest ??? LOL glad you do.

There were the home/club electone organs trying to do this exactly : Having all instruments in one instrument. My EL-90 is something like that : got Pipe organ, Drawbar Organ, Combo Organ, Piano, el.Piano and so on keys, Orchestral sounds, Synth sounds, Drums, percussion, auto rhythms/bass, velocity sensitive pedalboard where any instrument can be assigned (timpani with crash cymbal).

So doing it in virtual world is possible too and with far better sound, as modern computers can handle lots of GB and the sound can be set at 24/48000 (or more)

I posted about some years back, using HW3 vst option. I can have a pipe organ model and at the same time having a Symphony orchestra and a harpsichord and a synthesizer too.
Recording with a DAW is simpler, as each part can be recorded separately.
To have all these in one and be controlled from a physical console, the only app to do this so far is jOrgan.

Now with velocity on GrandOrgue this could open the way to this "big Combo" with just one app engaged.
 

L.Palo

New member
Hi!

Velocity=Y
MinVelocity=0
MaxVelocity=127

Something like that yes, on both Stop/Rank level. On PipeNumberxxx I don't see the use..... Let's say we got a fortepiano rank. Why should set some samples not to respond on velocity?
You miss the point. The reason for min and max is to regulate how strong the strongest (attack with highest velocity) is and how soft the weakest should be in regards to original sample volume.

Yes, velocity as MIDI signal is from 0 to 127, but this should be scaled to the sample volume and the point is to regulate how much of the sample volume should be used. Let's say that for certain notes in a certain register of the keyboard you wish to use from 100% volume to 20% -> MaxVelocity=100 MinVelocity=20 but in som other range you wish to only use from 100% to 50% because the samples are weaker there...

As far as more than one dynamic layer of samples is concerned, that's very close to my P.S. earlier in which I'd like a feature to select which attack sample depending on the actual keypress velocity! For this I clearly see a use even for classical organ samples to render a much more realistic playing experience.

Kind regards

Lars P
 

scush

New member
there would be possibly 9 ranks accociated with the stop each having it's own samples,and range of velocity.
 

scush

New member
there would be possibly 9 ranks accociated with the stop each having it's own samples,and range of velocity.
 

Ghekorg7 (Ret)

Rear Admiral Appassionata (Ret)
Hi!


You miss the point. The reason for min and max is to regulate how strong the strongest (attack with highest velocity) is and how soft the weakest should be in regards to original sample volume.

Yes, velocity as MIDI signal is from 0 to 127, but this should be scaled to the sample volume and the point is to regulate how much of the sample volume should be used. Let's say that for certain notes in a certain register of the keyboard you wish to use from 100% volume to 20% -> MaxVelocity=100 MinVelocity=20 but in som other range you wish to only use from 100% to 50% because the samples are weaker there...

As far as more than one dynamic layer of samples is concerned, that's very close to my P.S. earlier in which I'd like a feature to select which attack sample depending on the actual keypress velocity! For this I clearly see a use even for classical organ samples to render a much more realistic playing experience.

Kind regards

Lars P

Hi Lars :)

Thanks for clearing out his.
I agree.
And yes, of course we can use velocity to organ samples too, more or less like it is used on some Sonus Paradisi sets.
Personally I like the chiff of the attack samples much :-D nevertheless...
 

scush

New member
In the case of a single sample.
all ranks would use the same samples
but the ranks would contain different gain figures.
ps how many degrees of touch does it need.
john.
 

L.Palo

New member
Hi!

In the case of organ (pipe) samples I'd like to have say three layers of different attacks.


  • High velocity - quick, sharp speech with perhaps some key noise as well
  • Medium velocity - normal speech and build-up of tone
  • Low velocity - slow initial speech, no key noise

Anyone that has played a real (good) tracker instrument can confirm that it's possible to achieve different build-up of the tone depending on the attack. (As it's actually possible to affect also the release with the speed of the finger leaving the key)

For other instruments it's probably best also to have real different samples of different dynamics to better mimic a real instrument. If you have three samples of a piano tone, one played p, one played mf and one played fff, you can interpolate the different dynamics from the lower volume up to the actual sample volume and if it should be louder (faster velocity) select next sample instead... Modern electric pianos use many layers of sampling...

Kind regards

Lars P
 

Ghekorg7 (Ret)

Rear Admiral Appassionata (Ret)
Hi Lars :)

As you describe the real tracker organ is the way Jiri tries to release his models :) It's more close to reality yes. Would be nice to have this on GO.
But, will demand more work (and samples...) from any potential set creator LOL

The three levels for a piano was an example of course. It's the minimum... Main top sampled pianos come with 16 different velocity levels.
The well known and best free one, Salamander v2 for Linuxsampler, has such and as Alex told me he used a robot to play all those 16 samples per note plus 16 releases, plus hammer noise, pedal noise with strings sounding free on pedal down ....
It would be impossible for even the best piano player to achieve the exact amount of velocity for each note, 16 times each, during sampling !

So a GrandOrgue version of this great piano (a Yamaha C7 concert grand) will depend on how those velocity levels/layers are to be constructed. Also the pedal noise...... The two samples (down/up) must be engaged when pressing/depressing the sustain pedal.... How this can be constructed ? Already done in jOrgan.
Release action is already done in 0306.

Some may say these stuff go beyond GO's main theme.... but, yes, GO can be a super sample player too, why not ?

I was tempted some months back, to release a set with Oberheim OB-8 sampled sounds (non-velocity as the real synth), like OB strings, Brass, Choir, Synth bass, celesta and so on..... :-D or even combined on the same set with Prophet 600 sounds ! LOL LOL

Best
Panos
 

Ghekorg7 (Ret)

Rear Admiral Appassionata (Ret)
Sustain pedal needs specific midi command, so GO will respond to physical pedal movements.

In jOrgan was working from the start....

jOrgan leads the way on midi control of almost everything and GO on engine and now on many other super functions.
For example the full multi attack/release function is not possible on jOrgan with Fluidsynth engine due to the limits of sf2 format.
Many new midi functions of HW4 also "copied" or better influenced from jOrgan :)

I think must be a request list on sourceforge net so our devs can decide which can be implemented into GO.
Also think that there are users out there being extremely happy with GO as it is now, a super pipe organ simulator and do not want to mix stuff in it.
More feedback will spread more light on this.

Best
Panos
 
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