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A Virtual Org'chestra

e9925248

New member
GO will very likely gain some velocity support in the future, but lots of preliminary changes are still necessary.

In the mean time, GO trunk addresses the logging problem for headless computers and will include the latest portaudio (WaveRT support in wdmks).
 

e9925248

New member
Windows Build r1125 is available for testing (total manual/coupler action code has been rewritten). It also adds Pipe*AttackVelocity.
 

Corno Dolce

Admiral Honkenwheezenpooferspieler
Just an observation on a fascinating discussion:

Since there are working examples of the Octobass, which is a giant Double Bass that produces the 32' pitch = 16.35 Hz, I would include that as a "stop" in the "OrgChestra" as Octobass 32 (p) and Octobass 32 (f). Click on the link below:

http://www.antoniodattis.it/octobass.html
 

e9925248

New member
Support for the new parameters MinVelocityVolume/MaxVelocityVolume/Pipe999MinVelocityVolume/Pipe999MaxVelocityVolume has been commited to trunk.

PS: I have uploaded the current Help (ODF-Reference) as PDF to the SF.net FRS.
 

L.Palo

New member
Hi!

Velocity works fine here. One thing that's apparent with it though is that in real piano playing it's not only the velocity of the fingers that affect the strength of the tone but rather the amount of energy transferred into the hammers movement. With my MIDI keyboards it's more or less impossible to play fast and piano in nuance!

A little playing with this nice set revealed another problem that we should consider fixing in GrandOrgue. The problem is that a percussive stop should honour a cue point for release if it exist. I had a look into the Epinette files and realized that whoever did the samples prepared a workaround by adding a silent loop just before the cue for release. Thus the stop should not be put as a Percussive=Y in the odf to play as intended. This workaround is not really the proper way to handle such issues, in my opinion. Most percussive instruments can be muted anytime by the player and thus they might have a "release" that could be marked with a cue.

So, a bugfix for GO would be to add cue reading (for the release) even if the stop is Percussive=Y.

Kind regards

Lars P
 

e9925248

New member
A little playing with this nice set revealed another problem that we should consider fixing in GrandOrgue. The problem is that a percussive stop should honour a cue point for release if it exist. I had a look into the Epinette files and realized that whoever did the samples prepared a workaround by adding a silent loop just before the cue for release. Thus the stop should not be put as a Percussive=Y in the odf to play as intended. This workaround is not really the proper way to handle such issues, in my opinion. Most percussive instruments can be muted anytime by the player and thus they might have a "release" that could be marked with a cue.

So, a bugfix for GO would be to add cue reading (for the release) even if the stop is Percussive=Y.
The whole idea behind Percussive is, that a sample is played "as is", when the key is pressed down. Key up does not matter.

PS: Linux builds for r1131 are online (including setter changes and velocity).
 

L.Palo

New member
The whole idea behind Percussive is, that a sample is played "as is", when the key is pressed down. Key up does not matter.

Then that idea should be revised. Percussive should mean that no loop points or cues are needed but if a cue point is present then it will indicate where a release should happen. Have a look at the Epinette wav files (in LoopAuditioneer) for instance to see the very unnecessary "workaround". The same should go to for instance piano stops! When a player releases the piano key the dampers inside the piano will stop the strings from sounding!

Only very few instruments (whether they are classified as percussion instruments or not) cannot be stopped sounding (be muted) at players will after the initial attack! And those instruments won't need any cue points either.

To require an empty loop and specifying the stop as not percussive to play piano, clavichord and harpsichord samples (etc) correctly is very unnessecary, in my opinion. (from a sampleset producers perspective every step less needed to do with at sample is a great benefit!)

Kind regards

Lars P
 

ggoode.sa

New member
Hi Lars,

I like the way that you are thinking here... Piano samples in other VPO players are a major hassle due to all the work around steps that have to happen to get the correct release behaviors... I also wonder how one would get a 'Sustain Pedal' behavior that would then differentiate between not using a loop when not engaged, and then using a loop when engaged.

Kind regards,
GrahamG
 

scush

New member
Percussive=Y.
As Martin has stated all that this means is , loops and cue point's are ignored.

In the case of the barton organ.

The use of this on percussive rank's, prevents the reit from working.
In this example it would require that percussive y/n be applied to the samples and not the rank.

If this were implemented,the use of tremulant on/off could possibly represent up/down for a sustain /damper pedal.

john
 

e9925248

New member
In any case, GO should get a clean solution.

Precussive has ever been ignoring any loop/release meta-data. Changing this will likely break sample sets with unusual meta-data.

You are requesting the following function: Play a sample as is. If the key is released before reaching the release, skip to the release.

To the sustain pedal:
Isn't the function of a sustain pedal to keep the keys pressed down - even if the user releases them? So why does it need extra samples, as it just is a special case of a longer keypress?
 

L.Palo

New member
You are requesting the following function: Play a sample as is. If the key is released before reaching the release, skip to the release.

Yes, I'd be happy with that. If it cannot be changed to work with Percussive=Y then some other mechanism for reading samples in that way could be introduced.

To the sustain pedal:
Isn't the function of a sustain pedal to keep the keys pressed down - even if the user releases them? So why does it need extra samples, as it just is a special case of a longer keypress?

I don't directly see any need for extra samples with sustain pedal. Basically it keeps the keys down until pedal is released (with pianos you work with a dying tone anyway). But it seems that different uses of the sustain pedal might be intended. In real life the use of sustain pedal seriously change the tone of the instrument as it really moves all the dampers away which gives a much larger resonance and sympathetical strings sounding as well.

Kind regards

Lars P
 

scush

New member
When the pedal is in use all dampers are removed.

Any string harmonicaly related to the key played, will sound

john
 

Dorsetmike

Member
Isn't the function of a sustain pedal to keep the keys pressed down - even if the user releases them? So why does it need extra samples, as it just is a special case of a longer keypress?

Surely on a piano the sustain pedal holds the dampers away from the strings so that the strings vibrate and hence sound for longer, a natural decay rather than a damped one.

I'm not that familiar with electronic keyboards to know what the action is on them, but it may require different treatment on samples in GO
 

L.Palo

New member
As usual it would probably be best to supply additional samples of every note sampled with sustain pedal active to use instead of the dry single ones when the sustain pedal is down. Then the activation of a sustain pedal should tell GO to pick the attacks sampled with active sustain pedal. (for already sounding samples I guess the activation of the sustain pedal only can treat them as if the key is held down, but do note that it's possible to hit the same key again and trigger new samples playing!)

Otherwise, I think that the best way to have a clean solution for piano samples (and the like) would be to sample a note and keep it depressed until all the sound has ended and then do the release. In processing one would use separate attacks and releases. In that way one could delay the playing of the release for a note until the sustain pedal is lifted (de-activated) even if the attack sample already is played to the end.

Kind regards

Lars P
 

Dorsetmike

Member
Ideally I would think 2 full sets one with no sustain, one with sustain. Of course now somebody will want a set for the "soft" pedal which could move the mechanism to give a weaker strike (or apply some form of damping?). That could mean another set, then again what if you want soft plus sustain, would it be easier to reduce volume to simulate the soft pedal, this could be applied to normal and sustain.

The problem I see is that the sound from a string will decay even with the sustain active, so a release on de-activating the sustain would not be simple to achieve given one would have to determine the volume level at that point to be able to select a suitable release. Example if sustain off is at a fairly early point then the volume is still fairly high, if the release is from the tail end of the note, then we would have a somewhat abrupt change. Or am I nit picking or even maybe have hold of the wrong end of the stick?
 

L.Palo

New member
Release of a key that's sampled with sustain pedal on is not really a release of the key but a release of the sustain pedal. Already with current GO there's no problem with having multiple releases that's chosen from how long the sample has been playing.

Actually, I've recently tried (for testing purposes) to use a sample of one pitch and a release of another and it works just fine even if it sounds a bit strange indeed!

Anyway, if the damping mechanism works nicely in an acoustic piano there will be a rather abrupt stopping of the tone... No room acoustics taken into acount.

Kind regards

Lars P
 

Dorsetmike

Member
Already with current GO there's no problem with having multiple releases that's chosen from how long the sample has been playing.

Must admit I've not delved that far into the recent versions, could be interesting (read PITA) setting multiple releases in sample sets.
 

Dorsetmike

Member
Just finished pitch shifting on the SSO oboe set, now have to do the loops etc.

Is there any free/cheap software for batch pitch shifting which will also allow renaming the output; SSO file names are e.g. oboe a#3 to conform to GO I need to rename as 58-A#, I have to name the pitch shifted notes anyway, so use the same format as most GO ones

Currently I'm using Audacity, the SSO sets have 4 notes per octave, hence the need for pitch shifting, typical work flow I use.

Open note; change pitch down semitone; save as MM-N (MM=midi number, N=note); edit "undo pitch change"; save as MM-N; pitch shift up semitone; save as MM-N; close file; open next note and repeat except do the pitch shifts in reverse order, dialogue window is already set from previous up or down action, saves key strokes! (OK I'm lazy or suffering from work study syndrome)

I could probably write what Audacity term a "Chain" to do some of it, but can see no way of allocating the required names.
 

Dorsetmike

Member
Whilst on the subject of instruments other than keyboard, has anybody come across samples of early instruments, Krummhorn, Sackbut, Shawm, Baroque trumpet, Theorbo, I've found a few .WAV and MP3 files of various instruments playing short tunes I might go mad and try and extract a sample set or two. As they're playing solo I may be able to chop out individual notes and play with the pitch shifting and editing has anybody tried this, if so any hints or tips?
 

L.Palo

New member
Just finished pitch shifting on the SSO oboe set, now have to do the loops etc.

Is there any free/cheap software for batch pitch shifting which will also allow renaming the output;

With recent GO there's no need to pitch shift the samples! What you do instead is to store information about the pitch in the samples that GO will use for retuning not only to equal temperament but to any other available. You also need to specify the HarmonicNumber for the stop for the magic to work.

The main advantage is that you, as a sampleset producer, don't need to process the samples so extremely much and risk degrading them. I should perhaps mention that my LoopAuditioneer is capable of setting the pitch info (both in single mode and in batch) and also list convenient deviations for manually correcting pitch in the odf.

As GO has evolved you no longer even need single (individual) samples for every pipe (even if that's the best way to sample). I've not tried converting a 3 or 4 note/octave soundfont into a sampleset, but you can do it without interpolating the missing notes in an audio editor.

I maybe also should point out that you certainly can name the sample files anyway you want to as long as file name and the paths in the odf matches. It just seems that many of us followed the practice of MIDI numbering - Note name (036-C etc) for the ease of identifying samples.

Must admit I've not delved that far into the recent versions, could be interesting (read PITA) setting multiple releases in sample sets.

I'm currently working on a demo that utilize three different attack samples (each pipe) and totally 5 different release samples (of which 3 can be used in a single stop). That is somewhat of a pain to prepare, yes!

Kind regards

Lars P
 
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