What is Jazz

millions

New member
On improvisation: each guy has a "style" of dressing, acting, and talking. So it is in the music: you might hear a guy do the same "spiel" with slight variants. He has developed his own "personality" on his instrument.
 

JHC

Chief assistant to the assistant chief
Re your previous post #60
Are you attributing 1 to 5 to African Music or are you saying they apply to all jazz?
 
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millions

New member
Re your previous post #60
Are you attributing 1 to 5 to African Music or are you saying they apply to all jazz?

BASIC AFRICAN CHARACTERISTICS:

1. It must divide the main beat into 3 parts, as in a compound 6/8 or 12/8 with a "4/4" pulse on 1-4-7-10.
2. It must use a combination of major and minor pentatonic scales which combine to give an extended blues scale: C-Eb-F-G-Bb/C-D-E-G-A, which combined, yoelds C-D-Eb-E-F-(F#)-G-A-Bb.
3. It uses improvisation.
4. It "bends" notes in emulation of a voice.
5. It is a group effort (tribal) which also focuses on different soloists.

Jazz, as it originated in New Orleans, was derived from African sources, which I have identified generally above. if by all jazz you mean all jazz which came later, then of course not. However, if too many of these African elements are discarded, then we are left with a hybrid form of "jazz" which eventually reflects other cultures and concerns.

More commentary on each basic characteristic:

1. It must divide the main beat into 3 parts, as in a compound 6/8 or 12/8 with a "4/4" pulse on 1-4-7-10.

In bossa nova and latinized jazz, the compound time was discarded and replaced with 4/4 time, with various accents and Latino variations. In this sense, bossa nova is a hybrid form of jazz which departs from black American jazz in this regard.

2. It must use a combination of major and minor pentatonic scales which combine to give an extended blues scale: C-Eb-F-G-Bb/C-D-E-G-A, which combined, yields C-D-Eb-E-F-(F#)-G-A-Bb.

As early black American jazz began to assimilate into American culture in general, some harmonic aspects of its earliest influences began to assert themselves: the more harmonically complex ragtime, and then Western popular song forms (I Got Rhythm, Sweet Georgia Brown, etc.). Thus, the pentatonic blues element began to be emphasized less, and later, gradually disappeared, to be replaced by modern Western harmonic approaches. Use of the major seventh chord began to increase; this "leading tone" chord is at odds with the flatted-seventh of the "I" chord in blues forms, where all three basic chords are flat-sevens: I7-IV7-V7.

3. It uses improvisation.

This is not a very comprehensive characteristic; after all, the Grateful Dead, Cream, The Allman Brothers, and Phish are all improvisors, and are not jazz.

4. It "bends" notes in emulation of a voice.

This was true of horn jazz, but as the piano, an iconic warhorse which embodies all that is Western in music, and which could not bend notes, and was not as effective or loud as a solo voice compared to horns, began to become more prominent, harmonic complexity increased, and melodic elaboration decreased.

Finally, after the "peak" of harmonic complexity had been reached with be-bop, and jazz culture was so assimilated into white America that TV themes began to reflect this assimilation (Henry Mancini, Mannix, etc.), Miles Davis and Coltrane began playing more modally, more tone-centric jazz, finally reaching a harmonic stasis with later Miles Davis (The Jack Johnson Sessions, In A Silent Way, Bitches Brew, Filles de Kilamanjaro, On the Corner). This playing chromatically over a groove or "drone" was a reaction of black Americans, who "took jazz back," again, to African origins, although jazz critics argued that it wasn't jazz.
 

JHC

Chief assistant to the assistant chief
Jazz, as it originated in New Orleans, was derived from African sources, which I have identified generally above. if by all jazz you mean all jazz which came later, then of course not. However, if too many of these African elements are discarded, then we are left with a hybrid form of "jazz" which eventually reflects other cultures and concerns.
Well that is exactly what has happened it has progressed and developed just as it should and so has classical and all other music, a pentatonic scale is not a must for jazz any more than a 12 bar progression as you noted I think at the end of your post, it is great to get an enlightened input to the thread, do I take it that you are a follower of Dixie or trad jazz??

Now on a more personal note what is your instrument/s and are you an active musician?
 

millions

New member
Well that is exactly what has happened it has progressed and developed just as it should and so has classical and all other music, a pentatonic scale is not a must for jazz any more than a 12 bar progression as you noted I think at the end of your post, it is great to get an enlightened input to the thread, do I take it that you are a follower of Dixie or trad jazz??

If you really want to push that point, blues and jazz were "assimilated" musics from their inception, being the product of a uprooted people from Africa. I see blues as a more individual, solo form, as it began in rural areas with single artists playing alone, as in folk music. Jazz was more of upwardly mobile form, more urban, which sought to integrate itself. Also, the horns lent themselves to larger ensembles and orchestras.

I still see jazz as an American art form, invented here, and primarily black, with African origins, and of course, blues influence. I also think that the further one gets from these origins, esp. the blues element, the less "jazz" it becomes. I hear strong blues elements in Thelonious Monk, Coltrane, and Miles Davis.

When you say "a pentatonic scale is not a must for jazz any more than a 12 bar progression," this could be taken to imply that later jazz, like the modal and tone-centric Miles Davis stuff I mentioned, had "escaped" from its blues roots.

Actually, the opposite: I see Miles Davis' move into tone-centric jazz grooves as a move towards a "world" jazz, back to its African, monotonic, pre-harmonic beginnings and home. The question then arises: if it's still "jazz" when it becomes Latin-ized and Westernized, is it still "jazz" when it goes back to its pre-slavery roots in Africa? I don't see why not.

Wynton Marsalis certainly holds Louis Armstrong in high regard; his defense of jazz is immersed in history. If he goes forward to develop jazz as an art, I feel he will have, to a degree, minimized all the stylistic development, or distilled it into an essence which remains true to its earliest roots.

Now on a more personal note what is your instrument/s and are you an active musician?
I am a guitarist, but not one of those head-bangers. I can play jazz and blues, and have a strong blues-rock background. I'm not an active performer at present; I only do recording. I have an 88-note Yamaha P-90 piano as well, which I play popular songs on, and sing.
 

JHC

Chief assistant to the assistant chief
I don’t quite know if you are trying to make a point or give a history of jazz :confused: and a P-90 is a keyboard not a piano afaik.
 

millions

New member
I don’t quite know if you are trying to make a point or give a history of jazz :confused: and a P-90 is a keyboard not a piano afaik.
i.e,."What are you talking about, boy?"

The question was, "What is jazz?" It's a very assimilable form, constantly changing, but at some point it morphs to the point that it is no longer recognizable as jazz. The only way to gauge this is to define a set of musical criteria. For me, those criteria consist of

1. African-originated rhythmic elements, dividing the beat into 3, using compound time signatures
2. African-derived scales, using the pentatonic-derived blues scale
3. emphasis on melodic elements, both in relation to harmonic elaboration and complexity, or in the absence of harmony
4. improvisation, meaning immediate, non-notated elaborations and statements derived from knowledge of the instrument, and "working concepts" of musical creation and structure which are "compositional" in nature, but deployed :in the moment"
5. voice-like bending of pitch
6. instrumentation and forms, resembling "chamber" groups or small mobile units

Of course, these are general statements, and it is possible to find exceptions, or question the whole premise. :D
 
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JHC

Chief assistant to the assistant chief
i.e,."What are you talking about, boy?"

The question was, "What is jazz?" It's a very assimilable form, constantly changing, but at some point it morphs to the point that it is no longer recognizable as jazz. The only way to gauge this is to define a set of musical criteria. For me, those criteria consist of

1. African-originated rhythmic elements, dividing the beat into 3, using compound time signatures
That sounds interesting could you give an example of this in a jazz piece as the majority of jazz that I know is 4/4 Simple. I suspect you are going to get very technical lol
2. African-derived scales, using the pentatonic-derived blues scale
What is an African derived scale?
3. emphasis on melodic elements, both in relation to harmonic elaboration and complexity, or in the absence of harmony
4. improvisation, meaning immediate, non-notated elaborations and statements derived from knowledge of the instrument, and "working concepts" of musical creation and structure which are "compositional" in nature, but deployed :in the moment"
5. voice-like bending of pitch
6. instrumentation and forms, resembling "chamber" groups or small mobile units

Of course, these are general statements, and it is possible to find exceptions, or question the whole premise. :D
Yes they are general but I agree that jazz is for small ens and has to be improvised. Earlier in the thread I brought up the subject of the larger bands Ellington, Goodman, Herman, Kenton etc which were called Jazz bands but in truth because of their size and the complexity of the music had to use scores so I contend these were not jazz bands, what is your take on that?
 

millions

New member
That sounds interesting could you give an example of this in a jazz piece as the majority of jazz that I know is 4/4 Simple. I suspect you are going to get very technical lol

You sound like you've already made up your mind; most of it is simple 4/4 according to you. Why should I bother with a long-winded "technical" explanation of what "swing" is?

What is an African derived scale?

A pentatonic, major or minor.

Yes they are general but I agree that jazz is for small ens and has to be improvised. Earlier in the thread I brought up the subject of the larger bands Ellington, Goodman, Herman, Kenton etc which were called Jazz bands but in truth because of their size and the complexity of the music had to use scores so I contend these were not jazz bands, what is your take on that?

Well, for example, The Fletcher Henderson Orchestra featured many improvised solos by Coleman Hawkins, and space was provided for these solos in the arrangements. It's called "flexibility," which is probably very alien to literal, black & white thinkers.
 

JHC

Chief assistant to the assistant chief
You sound like you've already made up your mind; most of it is simple 4/4 according to you. Why should I bother with a long-winded "technical" explanation of what "swing" is?

You don’t have to bother at all! I am asking out of interest, the jazz that I know is in 4/4 time and of course 5/4 and 7/4 for Brubeck I have heard the odd piece in ¾ time but can’t recall the title, I can’t see the relationship to your [ African-originated rhythmic elements, dividing the beat into 3, using compound time signatures] this is your first criteria..... so can you give an example, I may be misunderstanding your meaning.
A pentatonic, major or minor.

I don’t understand that at all. Pentatonic scales come from all over the world so what is special in African Pentatonic Scales? Again I am curious, that’s all.
Well, for example, The Fletcher Henderson Orchestra featured many improvised solos by Coleman Hawkins, and space was provided for these solos in the arrangements. It's called "flexibility," which is probably very alien to literal, black & white thinkers.
I suggest that 99% of solos in the big bands were improvised to a large degree you call it flexibility so where does that get us, are they jazz bands ?
 
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millions

New member
teddy, you don't need to be worrying out-loud whether I am getting heated, because I'm not; but look at these queries, and what I'm being asked to explain. It might appear to you as "heat," but it's not. What do you take me for, a belligerent, alcoholic boor on a "dry drunk" rant? Oh, well...I'll just chalk it up to "the curse of intelligence." Now that we've gotten that cleared up...

You don’t have to bother at all! I am asking out of interest, the jazz that I know is in 4/4 time and of course 5/4 and 7/4 for Brubeck I have heard the odd piece in ¾ time but can’t recall the title, I can’t see the relationship to your [ African-originated rhythmic elements, dividing the beat into 3, using compound time signatures] this is your first criteria..... so can you give an example, I may be misunderstanding your meaning.

Ok, ok....I chased down an old blog of mine...I'm doing you a favor, I hope you appreciate that.

Jazz is based on an African, non-Western division of the main pulse beat. This is called a "shuffle" in Blues, and is used in jazz. Our Western notation system cannot properly convey this, and instead arrangers will notate in 4/4 and specify "shuffle feel." This jazz rhythm is not a "feel," it is a division of the main pulse into three rather than two.

To explain further, the main pulse of a blues or jazz song divides the measure into 4 parts, exemplified by the "walking" bass, which plays in 1-2-3-4 (That's why you think it's in 4/4).

However, there are accents which are divisions of 3 which cannot be notated properly in 4/4, because our time signature system does not allow for "3" values to be placed in the bottom number of the time signature. Everything goes in multiples of two: Whole, half, quarter, eighth, sixteenth, and so on.

To get a "three" value, we must place a "dot" after the note.
You can't put a "dotted" note in the bottom of a time signature.


Notating 3 divisions as "triplets" is too cluttering. The only truly accurate way to notate this shuffle is to use a "compound" time signature, 12/8. This is counter-intuitive, because the main bass-pulse (with the bass drum) is on 1-4-7-10. It's counter-intuitive to count to 12 in this manner, because the main pulse is still felt as 1-2-3-4. So most arrangers simply write "shuffle feel" next to the 4/4 time signature.


"Compound" rhythms allow the beat to be subdivided into 2 or 3 parts (factors of 12). African drummers "played" with this ambiguity, creating complex interplay, which Steve Reich studied closely.


New cross-cultural elements took this even further, to assimilate jazz rhythms into their existing cultural norms. Bossa Nova, for example, transformed the African-derived 3-division of black jazz into an evenly-divided 4/4, common in South America.

I don’t understand that at all. Pentatonic scales come from all over the world so what is special in African Pentatonic Scales? Again I am curious, that’s all.

Uh-huh, right. Just curious. The pentatonic scale is where the "blues" scale is derived. You should not ever, ever question the use of pentatonic scales in jazz. You should understand this implicitly, immediately. Breathe it like air.

For the answer to "What makes Africal pentatonics different?": they are non-Western, and use "just" intervals, like most folk musics. Go to WIK and read a little, if you need more info; this is where my "long-winded explanations" stop.

The "harmonic seventh" or 7/4 interval (about 968.826 cents), is also known as the septimal minor seventh. It has been a contentious issue throughout the history of music theory; it is 31 cents flatter than an equal-tempered minor seventh. Some assert the 7/4 is one of the blue notes used in jazz."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic_seventh


Interestingly, when this flatter seventh is used, the dominant seventh chord's "need to resolve" down a fifth is weak or non-existent. This chord is often used on the tonic (written as I7) and functions as a "fully resolved" final chord.


A-ha! So maybe THAT'S why blues uses all seventh chords (I7-IV7-V7)...it's also used in "barbershop quartet" singing.

That "blue" third, and the flatter "harmonic seventh" have their origins in African music. I'm no expert, but I do know that the pentatonic scale was used extensively, as it is in almost all "folk" musics.


I suggest that 99% of solos in the big bands were improvised to a large degree... you call it flexibility so where does that get us, are they jazz bands ?

Well, this would appear to contradict your earlier post:

Earlier in the thread I brought up the subject of the larger bands Ellington, Goodman, Herman, Kenton etc which were called Jazz bands but in truth because of their size and the complexity of the music had to use scores so I contend these were not jazz bands, what is your take on that?

Yes, I consider the Fletcher Henderson Orchestra to be jazz. If you disagree, that's your privilege.
 

teddy

Duckmeister
Thank you millions. I am so greatful. It is fantastic to meet someone as intelligent as I am.

teddy
 

millions

New member
It's still possible to retain the African elements which made it jazz in the first place, and blues must be considered as almost totally synonymous with that.

By post-1960, jazz had assimilated so many other characteristics that it was almost unrecognizable.

Note that Miles Davis is also a trumpet player; there may be a degree of competition there.

Perhaps what Marsalis laments is the post-be-bop discarding of harmonic complexity, as Miles Davis led the way to, playing melodically over "drones" or melodically only, like Ornette Coleman, who rarely used a pianist, as Sonny Rollins began to do. This non-chordal, harmonically static style of melodic playing, or more accurately, the lack of harmonic root-movement, is what I think Marsalis is objecting to.

Analyzing this "no chord" way of playing, the connection to African music, and other non-harmonic/melody only "world" musics is inescapable. Realistically, Marsalis may have a point here, since jazz, originating in America, became "jazz" only when the African elements (pentatonic scales, bent notes, division of beat into three) were combined with Western rudimentary harmonic progressions, beginning with the blues use of I7-IV7-V7, and progressing from there into "I Got Rhythm" type progressions, I-VI-ii-V-I and so on, using popular "standards" as harmonic templates for melodic/pentatonic overlays.

One more time: Jazz became "jazz" when the African elements were combined with Western rudimentary harmonic progressions and played on Western instruments.

So, yes, jazz has always had Western influences, but these became bigger and bigger, especially with the almost total removal of the African/blues melodic features, and removal of 3-division African rhythm, as Bossa Nova did, changing it to a evenly-divided 4/4 beat. If you take these African features away, it is no longer jazz, but a hybrid form.

For the "pro-assimilation" argument, I counter by saying: The African elements of jazz were just as essential as the Western rudimentary harmonic progressions.

But for the "new jazz" revolutionaries, the Western rudimentary harmonic progressions of jazz had been increasingly emphasized, while the African elements had been slowly removed.
These harmonic progressions are what modern players like Miles Davis and others removed, in order to take jazz back to the more "black," more African elements.

So why did they do this, and why would Wynton Marsalis disagree? Because, removing the chord progression made jazz sound more like actual African music, which was melodic only, using no chords, like many non-harmonic "world" musics.

Was this fair? Admittedly, it took jazz in the opposite direction of Western harmony, transforming it into an even more "Africanized" form. A form of "cultural revenge" on America, perhaps, on the part of black jazz players?

And Marsalis is a "newer" generation of black man, more assimilated, less angry, more successful, unlike the angry Black Panther "hippie" afo-haired radicals of the 1960s.

Race aside, Marsalis is also the product of the "post-modern" era, in which we become aware of "histories" which did not really exist as commodities or "discrete objects" which could be used in various ways; to meld and cross-breed with other discrete histories, or to adopt wholesale as an artist direction, such as "roots music" movements for blues (The Fabulous Thunderbirds) or bluegrass (Brother Where Art Thou), or, Marsalis himself and his "Jazz at Lincoln Center" series. In this case, Marsalis is a "roots" traditionalist who has adhered to a strict historical model of jazz, as a fusion of African and Western elements, but still strictly American.

Also, Louis Armstrong the Man plays a factor in this; his unflagging good nature, his feeling that he did truly belong to America, the love audiences had for him, and, generally, that he was coming from a place of love, rather than anger or hate. Malcolm X also gravitated to a more "loving" position and tried to start a less hateful form of Islamic religion.

But in this sense, are Malcolm X and Miles Davis seeing themselves as more "world citizens?" Is this their motivation? And does this validate Davis' transforming of jazz into a more African, more "world," less American form? Perhaps this is just as valid as Marsalis' more conservative view. The "world" view, however, takes jazz away from America, away from the slavery and poverty from which it was created.

In this sense, "jazz" was just as "artificially created" as anything else; a "fusion" hybrid music from the beginning, created from the results of dislocation, aggression, and a people literally ripped from its cultural roots. Is it any wonder?

I guess Ken Burns is strictly an American historian, after all, so it makes good historical sense that his PBS documentary series took the form it did, and avoided these types of controversies. Perhaps "History" did end by the pst-1960s. "It's the End of the World As We Know It," as REM sang.
 
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JHC

Chief assistant to the assistant chief
Ok, ok....I chased down an old blog of mine...I'm doing you a favor, I hope you appreciate that.

You are too kind and I do appreciate it my good luck has never been so large, you are providing a lot of information which is a bit daunting to a simple soul such as I however I do my best so here goes:
However, there are accents which are divisions of 3 which cannot be notated properly in 4/4, because our time signature system does not allow for "3" values to be placed in the bottom number of the time signature. Everything goes in multiples of two: Whole, half, quarter, eighth, sixteenth, and so on.

To get a "three" value, we must place a "dot" after the note.
Well this is surly a dotted rhythm as used in all music is it not?
For the answer to "What makes Africal pentatonics different?": they are non-Western, and use "just" intervals, like most folk musics.
When you say “just intervals” are you referring to “just temperament”?
I know what a pentatonic scale is but I was trying to find out
a. what was different in an African scale as opposed to say a Celtic scale,
b. why jazz has to be constructed on that format “this was your second criteria”
I don’t doubt it started out like that but jazz has evolved.

Well, this would appear to contradict your earlier post:

How so?? Oh… I have just become aware of your latest post so I have yet to read it
Yes, I consider the Fletcher Henderson Orchestra to be jazz. If you disagree, that's your privilege.
OK but are they improvising?? Which was #3 on your list
Do you consider the following link as jazz ?
[video=youtube;Oax-u-X0G8E]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Oax-u-X0G8E#t=48s [/video]
 

millions

New member
Well this is surly a dotted rhythm as used in all music is it not?

Your line of inquiry seems motivated more by a desire to diametrically oppose my observations than a desire to truly discuss the characteristics of jazz. It's as if you're asking "How is jazz similar to all other music?" That'll really be illuminating.

When you say “just intervals” are you referring to “just temperament”?

No, because that is a contradiction in terms.

WIK: In musical tuning, a temperament is a system of tuning which slightly compromises the pure intervals of just intonation in order to meet other requirements of the system.

No. I'm referring to small-number intervals, not a temperament.

I know what a pentatonic scale is but I was trying to find out
a. what was different in an African scale as opposed to say a Celtic scale.

There is no basic difference. Certain African music used pentatonic scales, tuned with flatter sevenths, and this is what was brought over by blacks (you know, those black people we enslaved) and this became "the blues."

Western classical and popular music is based on 7-note diatonic scales, not pents. This makes pents "non-Western."

b. why jazz has to be constructed on that format (this was your second criteria)
I don’t doubt it started out like that but jazz has evolved.

You don't have to do anything. All I'm saying is, the more diatonic and less pentatonic "jazz" becomes, the further it departs from its African origins. And jazz was invented by black Americans in New Orleans. Do you dispute this?
 
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millions

New member
...are they improvising?? Which was #3 on your list.

Yes, there are sections of improvisation.


Do you consider the following link as jazz ? (Stan Kenton clip)

Yes, I think it's jazz, because:
1. It uses syncopated rhythmic figures in the opening scored brass sections.
2. The instrumentation conforms to jazz conventions: saxophones, trumpets, trombones, stand-up bass, drumset.
3. It features improvised solos from the saxophone.
4. The saxophone solo incorporates "bent" notes.

You might find my "extra-musical" observations more interesting:

1. Harmonically, this is jazz which has become increasingly Westernized and diatonic. There is pervasive use of diatonic harmonic function (I-ii-iii-IV-V-vi-vii), using major seventh chords on "I." Unlike "blues" harmonic forms, there is no flatted-seventh on I or IV.

2. Look at the expression on Stan Kenton's face when it goes in to close-up. This is not the facial expression of a Western classical musician; this is the "leer" of a jazz musician, who seeks to be totally and physically involved with the music. I hate to say it, but this is a white man adopting "black" mannerisms. Just sayin'.

3. The band members are interesting, too; they are exclusively white, many of them are sporting facial hair, and the hair is longer than 1950s standards; they look almost like "hippies."
 
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JHC

Chief assistant to the assistant chief
I am getting a little tired of ‘you said I said format’ so with one last attempt:
I am not diametrically opposed to your observations but do question some this happens on all forums.
I have not said “jazz is similar to all other music” but it has many things in common don’t you agree?
Pentatonic is defiantly not all “non-Western” some Gregorian chant, American Natives, European folk tunes and the early Greeks had Pentatonic.
That jazz was born from the imported black slaves I am not disputing.
Now if you want to take the purest stance in that jazz has to be of Pentatonic format you will get no objection from me as I also am a purest for some music.
In the big bands and dance bands improvised solos were standard but that IMO does not make them “Jazz Bands” I know most people will disagree with me on that one but, there I go being a purist.
The jazz that I was involved with was nearly all 4/4 the front liners would improvise within the bars with melody and accentuation while the rhythm section laid down a firm beat that they (front liners) could return to at any time we used the plane old diatonic scale sure there could have been the odd number based on a diatonic.
Every number was improvised by the whole band the size of the ensembles would be from a trio up to septet. I never saw a score in any jazz club that I played in but dance bands were a different kettle of fish as it was all about the dots, so there you have it millions you have raised a lot of interesting things that made me re think my position but that is all to the good I hope we will be on friendly terms. :cheers::cheers::cheers:
 
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