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Why Isn't Guilmant More Highly Regarded?

Elk

New member
I am a listener, not a musician. I have tried repeatedly to enjoy Vierne, Widor and Tournemire. I have 2 sets of Vierne symphonies, both of which disinterest me. However, I love Franck and Messiaen (even though I find the spelling of his name impossible to remember). What I fail to understand is why Alexandre Guilmant isn't considered more highly than the other late French Romantics. To my ears, his works are more tuneful and airier. They invite re-hearing. Was he once so famous as a performer that his works were disparaged?
 

FinnViking

Member
I once had all the thick Guilmant collections that are availble nowadays. They stood in my note shelf for more than a decade. Then one day I decided to play through everything that I had collected and save what was worth performing and learning and throw away what wasn't. To my surprise, not much of Guilmant' music was worth it. There are certain gems among the pieces, really beautiful and/or joyful, but mostly it wasn't anything special. The same applies to every composer, though... A matter of taste, of course! And I never play, Vierne, Franck or Messiaen, and only selected movements form Widor. I prefer more "melodic" music.
 
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Elk

New member
I once had all the thick Guilmant collections that are availble nowadays. They stood in my note shelf for more than a decade. Then one day I decided to play through everything that I had collected and save what was worth performing and learning and throw away what wasn't. To my surprise, not much of Guilmant' music was worth it. There are certain gems among the pieces, really beautiful and/or joyful, but mostly it wasn't anything special. The same applies to every composer, though... A matter of taste, of course! And I never play, Vierne, Franck or Messiaen, and only selected movements form Widor. I prefer more "melodic" music.

Now I'm curious about your preferences--- names please!
 

Elk

New member
Thank you, Marko. I understand what you mean by 'melody'. I guess I prefer works with a little more edge. That said, I thoroughly enjoyed the first 5 of your improvisations (as many as I've listened to) and will listen to them all. They are more interesting than the first 6 other pieces I listened to.

Again thanks. Your are a wonderful improviser playing on a fine organ.

Steve
 

MusingMuso

New member
Well of course, Guilmant was the early-music scholar who resurrected early French organ-music. He was also a supreme academic and represents a French neo-classic style which influenced Widor. Debussy soon wrecked that!

Now if you thought you didn't like Guilmant, I challenge anyone to say the same after listening to a VERY special recording, where the recording-engineer is a good organist, (actually my successor as Uni organ-scholar).

The recording is probably the best I've ever heard of organ and orchestra playing together, and the final movement is just STUNNING!

Go on...have a listen and THEN tell me Guilmant is rubbish!!!!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7es98AW8nYI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j82jIx2XVGA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fxIe5kDoUI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlnBBhwqSqU

The organ is Liverpool Cathedral, with Ian Tracey at the console.

Best,

MM
 
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Elk

New member
Thanks for the links, Musing Muso. That performance shows exactly what I fancy about Guilmant!

I didn't realize he was an academic. That explains the flowering of late romanticism in his music without the forward-looking harmonies of someone like Mahler. Yes, I can see how Debussy put paid to his sound world and also, perhaps, why he isn't more highly regarded, but I still prefer his compositions to those of Widor or Vierne.
 

MusingMuso

New member
Thanks for the links, Musing Muso. That performance shows exactly what I fancy about Guilmant!

I didn't realize he was an academic. That explains the flowering of late romanticism in his music without the forward-looking harmonies of someone like Mahler. Yes, I can see how Debussy put paid to his sound world and also, perhaps, why he isn't more highly regarded, but I still prefer his compositions to those of Widor or Vierne.

=====================


The other thing, which for me, makes Guimant stand head and shoulders above many of his contemporaries, is the fact that he not only wrote for other genres, his orchestration is absolutely superb....perhaps only equalled by Saint-Seans.

I find it funny that people say Liverpool is the wrong organ to use, when actually, Guilmant had a much wider view of the world than all his fellow Parisian organists. He spent quite a lot of time in America.

I'll see if I can find some decent recordings of his Harmonium music, which is incredibly good.

best,

MM
 

Corno Dolce

Admiral Honkenwheezenpooferspieler
Well of course, Guilmant was the early-music scholar who resurrected early French organ-music. He was also a supreme academic and represents a French neo-classic style which influenced Widor. Debussy soon wrecked that!

I am a die-hard Guilmant fan and acknowledge the original contributions he bequeaths us today. Debussy did a lot of wrecking in his day because he is an outgrowth of the French Revolution which pitched all the old into the dustbin of History. In a Millenium people will say: "Debussy, whats that? a strangled cat?" Ask the same people about JSBach, the Master from Thüringen, and you'll get knowing smiles - they understand that JSBach is the Everliving Source of the highest in Music.
 
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wljmrbill

Member
alot of the problem lies with the professors at music schools, private teachers, and so called appreciation of the arts.. who have a mind set of what must be learned and listened to in -order to be a sucessful musician. As a rule Guilmant is hardly ever mentioned. Just the Big name boys from years of pushing..i.e. Bach, Bach, Beethoven, Mozart etc.. I remember my college study and Heaven help me if my organ professor caught me playing much besides Bach, Widor , Vierne, some Brahms. I believe teachers in these modern days are more liberal as to what may be good for the student to learn as well as the Old boys. IMHO
 

pcnd5584

New member
alot of the problem lies with the professors at music schools, private teachers, and so called appreciation of the arts.. who have a mind set of what must be learned and listened to in -order to be a sucessful musician. As a rule Guilmant is hardly ever mentioned. Just the Big name boys from years of pushing..i.e. Bach, Bach, Beethoven, Mozart etc.. I remember my college study and Heaven help me if my organ professor caught me playing much besides Bach, Widor , Vierne, some Brahms. I believe teachers in these modern days are more liberal as to what may be good for the student to learn as well as the Old boys. IMHO

I can assure you that this attitude does not prevail in the UK, to the best of my knowledge. My own college professors and tutors encouraged us to study as widely as possible - including attending concerts and listening to 'new' works, which we might otherwise have discounted.

In addition, as a teacther myself, I encourage my pupils in the same manner. The current field of study stretches from the Baroque up to (in one case) Dire Straits. naturally, this latter is an exceptional example. Nevertheless, within the range of classical music, I encourage my pupils to play just about anything which I consider to be worth playing. And, if they were to come to me with something which I regarded as 'unworthy', either I would extract any positive points I could from the score - or at the least, explain why I thought there might be something better which they should study.
 
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Krummhorn

Administrator
Staff member
ADMINISTRATOR
I only rely upon Guilmant for church service music, especially when I have not the time to properly prepare/rehearse some other pieces(s) during the week. My parishioners 'eat it up' and always comment on 'how nice that offertory' was when Guilmant is listed in the bulletin, however.

I rather find some of his stuff ordinary (boring actually) ... but there are exceptions of course. Some of the 'larger' works are superb.

Since Guilmant is in the public domain, there is a plethora of downloadable organ scores on the IMSLP site, ripe for the taking.

Lars A. ♫
 

Elk

New member
As I first stated, I'm a listener only, so does that mean, Lars, that Guilmant's scores are so inevitable, or the fingering so simple, that they virtually play themselves for an experienced organist?

Steve
 

Corno Dolce

Admiral Honkenwheezenpooferspieler
I only rely upon Guilmant for church service music, especially when I have not the time to properly prepare/rehearse some other pieces(s) during the week. My parishioners 'eat it up' and always comment on 'how nice that offertory' was when Guilmant is listed in the bulletin, however.

I rather find some of his stuff ordinary (boring actually) ... but there are exceptions of course. Some of the 'larger' works are superb.

Since Guilmant is in the public domain, there is a plethora of downloadable organ scores on the IMSLP site, ripe for the taking.

Lars A. ♫

Kh, you meant "ripe for the ripping"?...?:lol:
 

Krummhorn

Administrator
Staff member
ADMINISTRATOR
As I first stated, I'm a listener only, so does that mean, Lars, that Guilmant's scores are so inevitable, or the fingering so simple, that they virtually play themselves for an experienced organist?

Steve

Steve,

Let me clarify my thoughts on Guilmant ...

When I said "ordinary" or "boring" ... for me those are the kind of pieces that are uninteresting for me as a player/performer. I would just as soon play Mary Had A Little Lamb in those cases - they just aren't interesting to me as a player/performer.

Lars A
 

Elk

New member
Thanks for the Link!

When I opened the youtube link, I thought I would be hearing Asma, whose recordings of Guilmant are the basis of my collection. What a wonderful error--- to hear a young man so in tune with the music he is making!
I may soon have to connect my laptop to my big stereo and TV to enjoy more fully such finds.
 

John King

New member
You are right. I discovered Guilment last year, and found out how superb his organ music was.He heeds to be revived ! Do spread the Word !
 

Krummhorn

Administrator
Staff member
ADMINISTRATOR
I enjoy having the complete organ works of Guilmant at my disposal (digital form - pdf's downloaded from imslp).

There are plenty of concert works to consider doing as well as music for church services.
 

wljmrbill

Member
Seems to me that in USA people are less interested/educated in the traditional classical music but prefer "pretty music" as I call it. unless in Roman, High Liturgical Episcopal/Lutheran services.
 
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