Burning of the Australian Flag - Your thoughts.

[Sybarite]

Corno Dolce – I apologise if we have a slight misunderstanding here. I was not implying that you would legislate against anything, merely attempting to raise a number of questions that, I think, are involved with this issue.

There have been many incidents of effigies being burnt – traditionally, in the UK, we burn an effigy of Guy (Guido) Fawkes on 5 November each year to mark the plot in 1605 to blow up Parliament and the monarchy. But this has, over the years, also been linked with general anti-Catholicism and indeed, in Lewes in East Sussex, the townspeople also mark the burning to death of 17 Protestants between 1555 and 1557, and also burn an effigy of Pope Paul V. More recently, in the wake of 9/11, an effigy of Osama bin Laden was burnt at Lewes.

Are all Britons who follow this tradition "satanically inhuman"? If not, why not? What is the difference, philosophically, between watching/burning an effigy of someone that one does not know personally and watching/burning an effigy of someone that one does know personally?

In 1991, the corrupt newspaper proprietor Robert Maxwell met his death. Just a few weeks later, I attended a Bonfire Night party organised by one of the trade unions at his newspaper. An effigy of Maxwell himself was burned. Was it "satanically inhuman" to relish this way of marking the demise of a nasty, thieving criminal who stole from people's pensions?

[Corno Dolce]

Hi Sybarite,

No apologies are necessary but thank you nonetheless. I don't belive that Britons have a niche specialty on being *satanically inhuman*. I have witnessed effigy burning in cities like Rio, Buenos Aires, Santiago, Osaka, Shanghai, St. Petersburg(Russia), Uppsala(Sweden)and elsewhere. Sometimes I get into an *Anthropology Mode* and then I'll make a written or mental note about *dramatic gestures* in different cultures, how much of it is a product of *copycat* ergo, something that has been broadcast by telemedia or is it homegrown protests.

My humble take on the situation with effigy burning in Western society: Those that have done so will probably have a tough time finding employment after such an act has been committed. Employers these days are averse to risky behaviors. Employers have many sources of information for which they can build a dossier on any candidate for employment. Of course, one can try to legislate how employers hire and fire people but more often than not, an understanding within the company or betwixt companies usually takes care of screening candidates. Yes, I agree that its harsh but it is also symbolic of the tough culture Westerners live in.

Cheers,

Corno Dolce

[NEB]

If they have a point to make, then I'd prefer they made it by burning a flag rather than blowing up a plane or a train (for example)...

But then again I'd rather live in a world where poeple didn't feel a need to do any such things and peace and harmony reigned. And George Orwell's view of the world was a work of fiction rather than prophecy...

[Corno Dolce]

Hi NEB,

I am so in sync with *Where people didn't feel a need to do any such things*.

Cheers,

Corno Dolce

[NEB]

If they have a point to make, then I'd prefer they made it by burning a flag rather than blowing up a plane or a train (for example)...

In the past hour or so someone Blew up a Lawyers office in Paris...

[Sybarite]

In the past hour or so someone Blew up a Lawyers office in Paris...

Blimey.

That's in the 8th arrondissement. I was next door in the 7th as recently as Tuesday.

To go back a little – as has already been said, of course I'd prefer that, if people wish to protest against something, they merely burnt flags or other symbols/objects instead of blowing up people. Although that is rather predicated on the idea that one would automatically disagree with whatever such protesters were against, and a belief that violence is always ethically wrong.

One would not, for instance, suggest that the anti-Nazi resistance during WWII should have limited their activities to burning a few flags, for instance. While most people, knowing something of what happened in apartheid South Africa would understand the reasons that ANC declared an armed struggle.

Flag-burning, in reality, is very small cheese.

[Corno Dolce]

Certain foreign governments would see it as a *quality-of-life* that needs to be rectified and will view the situation through the prism of the *Broken Windows Theory* ergo, a window that has been pierced by a rock, when it has not been looked after, will invite more damage, thus setting off a cascade of events which lead to delinquency and criminality and more suffering as a result.

[Sybarite]

But there's a situation – do you allow your own views to be led by the knowledge that others will do such and such over the issue or do you make your own mind up?

This is exactly why the issue is really so important. There are Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Sihks etc etc ad nauseum, who want to say what your (and my) point of view should be.

This is not about saying that you (or I) want everyone to think the same as you (or I) – it's about democracy; it's about saying that everyone has a right to believe what they want to and the state has no right to foist any particular view on the electorate at large (and that includes any religious view).

Incidentally, perhaps it's pure coincidence that the countries in the West with the highest rate of teenage pregnancy are the countries with the highest age of consent and the most openly moralistic messages about sex? Secularism is vital to this whole business. If we want freedom – democracy – and genuinely claim to believe in it, then that means that we have to accept that others will not agree with us – that is the very nature of democracy. Hence we come back to the flag burning.

[NEB]

Quite right Sybarite...

Truth is that in western - supposedly free countries there is little real freedom detectable. You are controlled in and require permission for almost every single thing you do in your life.

[Corno Dolce]

Hi NEB,

You're quite right in how constrained we are - requiring permission for this and that.

Cheers,

Corno Dolce

[NEB]

Leaves me wondering at what point the peak of freedom happened. sometime in the 19th century perhaps? Unlikely to be in the feudal system, but then again...?

[toejamfootball]

If they have a point to make, then I'd prefer they made it by burning a flag rather than blowing up a plane or a train (for example)...

But then again I'd rather live in a world where poeple didn't feel a need to do any such things and peace and harmony reigned. And George Orwell's view of the world was a work of fiction rather than prophecy...

That would be so boring though, Humans crave conflict.. in a world without conflict we would die of boredom. I know I would at least.

[hawkan2580]

To me, burning a flag is symbolic indeed, a protest against something. As others have pointed out, the flag is piece of cloth and if burning this cloth-symbol best depicts what they protesting against, well then they should burn it. It however, tells a lot about their skill in pointing out what is wrong and their ability to protest against that in particular.

However, I would fiercely defend their right to protest against what they think is wrong.

Someone raised the point of not doing this out of respect for soldiers of wars and the like.. to me, those soldiers didn't fight for a flag, they fought for what the flag represented at the time (if they indeed had any choice at all, which is rare), if the politics and situation in a country has changed, the flag now represents something different, thus, it is the representation of the flag that is in question, not the flag per say. So by burning a flag that today represents one thing doesn't mean that one dishonors what that flag stood for previously.

As for, Australia being the best country.. nah, only someone who haven't travelled a lot would say such a thing. I choose to live here because it is good overall and better then a lot of others in some areas, but it is certainly worse off in other areas, albeit they don't happen to be that important to me. In essence, there is no such thing as a best country that is best for everyone. In my travels, I have frequently encountered people stating that they live in "the best" country, and when probed for their comparative reference points, mostly they're not well traveled, have only been to a select few other locations and only as tourists. From a material point of view, yes, Australia is great.. from a work/life balance and security of welfare, not so great. From a climate point of view, great.. from a sustainable climate point of view, horrific.

I would hate Australia going down the path of patriotism to the point of critiquing something within the politics or people of Australia means that you are anti-australian.. Only countries with big flaws adopts such a mentality. The others realize that from critique comes growth.

Sorry if I derailed the topic a bit, but it bugs me when people use terms like "best" in a patriotic sense. It is like stating that someone is the Best guitarist.. there is no such thing LOL.. they can be extremely good at what they do in a particular style or reasonable good all around player, but BEST, they are not as it doesn't exist.

[Contratrombone64]

If someone burning your country's flag upsets you, then they've acheived their goal ... yes?

[Sybarite]

hawkan2580 –