The movie "Amadeus".

[John Watt]

I'm so old I'm still freakin' that I can own a movie, and watch it,
from my own comfort.
It used to take three 45 pound cans of film and a union projectionist,
to make a movie available for the public, when I was a theatre usher.

I love Amadeus. The music, the acting, the clothes, the architecture,
and seeing someone whose life transcended royalty and the Vatican,
and the very act of having to write it down on paper.
Too bad society can't allow such genius to occur symphonically any more.
Yes, Mozart, you didn't die in vain.
I get accused of using to many notes, and too many effects,
and sometimes, I can laugh at it all, just like you.
Twinkle twinkle, big musical star, how I wonder where you are.

During the movie, when a "low-brow" theatre is using a real horse onstage,
it's obvious the movie dubs in Mozart's voice saying "I like the horse".
At the end, during his funeral procession, they have to wait for cows,
a lush presentation, really waiting. It made me laugh at the theatre in Hamilton,
getting me some shush it looks, and it made me love Mozart even more.

 

[JHC]

Mozart sucks.....................

 

[Corno Dolce]

I'm so old I'm still freakin' that I can own a movie, and watch it,
from my own comfort.
It used to take three 45 pound cans of film and a union projectionist,
to make a movie available for the public, when I was a theatre usher.

I love Amadeus. The music, the acting, the clothes, the architecture,
and seeing someone whose life transcended royalty and the Vatican,
and the very act of having to write it down on paper.
Too bad society can't allow such genius to occur symphonically any more.
Yes, Mozart, you didn't die in vain.
I get accused of using to many notes, and too many effects,
and sometimes, I can laugh at it all, just like you.
Twinkle twinkle, big musical star, how I wonder where you are.

During the movie, when a "low-brow" theatre is using a real horse onstage,
it's obvious the movie dubs in Mozart's voice saying "I like the horse".
At the end, during his funeral procession, they have to wait for cows,
a lush presentation, really waiting. It made me laugh at the theatre in Hamilton,
getting me some shush it looks, and it made me love Mozart even more.

Not transcending the Vatican - Used by the Vatican...

 

[wljmrbill]

I have this on VHS and DVD.. excellent movie for a laugh as well as serious plot and music performance. I too like the costumes...of course I like the opera's of his too and period cotumes.

 

[John Watt]

It's funny how an opera can become a backdrop for Mozart's life.

About the Vatican.
The "foreskin of Jesus Christ" has been a source of parades and celebrations,
for that European church and community, ever since someone showed up with it.
But it was stolen, considered an inside job done by the Vatican,
the thought being it's too "primitive" to be seen worshipping a foreskin.
I don't have to wonder what the Pope is doing with it.

 

[JHC]

About the Vatican.
The "foreskin of Jesus
I don't have to wonder what the Pope is doing with it.

He would not recognise it probably thinks it is a scallop

 

[John Watt]

If you got the whole collection, would you use butter and garlic,
or a modern skin softener?

By the way, JHC, what's a local fish that you eat a lot in New Zealand?
They don't have the $10 bags of various fillets at No Frills any more.
They're having a hard time coming up with fillets big enough to sell.
I'm getting mostly Alaskan pollock, Lake Erie fishing banned for most local fisheries.

 

[JHC]

The Snapper seem very popular but it has to be fresh.

 

[White Knight]

@ Colin and John Watt: Aren't things getting a little fishy around here? :shake:

 

[Dirigent]

My thought exactly, White Knight. If you ask me, I'd say it's a big, red herring.

"Amadeus" - if ever a film (biopic) was calculated to upset Mozart lovers it's this one!! Divided opinion, mostly over the representation of Mozart - who is shown to be ADHD and very childish. I've read the letters and there's plenty in them to support that view. However, the film is fundamentally about music itself and, in this sense, Mozart is not really the central 'character'. I don't think a finer screenplay (or play) has ever been written about the art of music and for this reason I adored the film. The words!! I'm not especially a Mozart fan, having become more or less bored with his music 25 years ago and moved higher up the pecking order, shall we say. But the film is capital "R" romanticism - one which relies heavily upon costume, setting, make-up and verisimilitude and falls nicely into the 'tortured, suffering genius' paradigm, which is part of the hagiography of composers. For me, the weakness of the film was the cliched composer figure, but it has taken me over 20 years to form that view. I would prefer, nowadays, a composer who speaks real lines ("Pass the pepper, please") not one who speaks all the time about only music. But because it is ALL ABOUT THE MUSIC this kind of reality is absent from the film. The figure of Leopold was all-too glib because, if you read the letters, Mozart relied heavily upon him and valued his judgment and opinions and, ironically, was the major reason why Mozart never really grew up. The writers could have made much of that and perhaps it would have assauged the feelings of hostility toward the film expressed by Mozart-lovers.

Thanks for starting the discussion!

 

[John Watt]

I wish I could add more than you have, a more technical explanation of why "Amadeus" still turns me on.
If Mozart lovers don't like the movie, I can see saying that it got "too wigged out".
And if there's a scene the movie left out, for me, it was Mozart, or his father, performing solo onstage.

And Corno Dolce's comment about not transcending the Vatican, but being used by it, took awhile to foment.
Okay.... being used by the Vatican, from my Scottish perspective, is transcending the Vatican.
I see Michaelangelo the same way. We're talking about Mozart, and I don't know who the Pope was.

If I can ask a question, after many viewings, thinking he neglecting the boy,
despite his father's investment in him, whatever happened to Mozart's son?

 

[Dirigent]

Mozart had two sons and both died, I believe, in their 40's. Franz Xavier attempted to become a composer but he was unsuccessful. Neither Mozart child had any children themselves so the line stopped there, to the best of my knowledge. And, of course, Mozart and Constanza lost children in infancy - just like everybody else did.

I'm sorry, I fail to get the connection with the Vatican. I see the Cardinal Collarado (spelling!) figure as important because it established the link between music and the church - which was already hundreds of years old - and it told a lot about the cultural climate of Austria at that time. The Hapsburg Empire was Catholic and tied closely to the development of kunstmusik - and we can all thank God for that, I think!!

There is a forum dedicated to Mozart, so named, if you are interested in knowing more. Don't try to discuss "Amadeus" because many of the contributors there have fetishized the composer and only want to discuss what bus he caught to his Turkish Bath, who his hairdresser was, how many notes there were in this or that score, what his barber said about Salieri - and precious little about the music at all. I lost interest some time ago. I always think it's better to discuss issues with people who are 'on the same page', as it were.

 

[JHC]

Dirigent, I feel as you do about WAM I do rate his Masses and the late StQt are not too bad but very lightweight, his operas are nearly as good as G&S. but he is not high up on my list of composers.

 

[Dirigent]

I don't exactly think Mozart is "lightweight" at all - that's not my problem with it. The gravitas of some of the string quartets and chamber music and the inventiveness and melodies of the late symphonies and certainly the operas are remarkable. The problem I have is that Mozart did nothing new with music; he pushed no boundaries and it's all so tonal!! Not that he wasn't going to interesting keys in his 'later' works - there was certainly that - but there's an over-familiarity with it which I find exasperating. I own so little of his recorded music and when I played the piano I found his pieces "nice" but undemanding to my ear. I must have complexity, drama and daring abstract musical ideas to sustain my interest. Can I explain by saying that my 'desert island' music is the late string quartets of Beethoven, as well as his last half dozen piano sonatas. Fantastic development of ideas, almost attempting to break away from tonality itself - daring, remarkable and devastating in its concentrated sheer musicality. That's the only explanation I can provide for my loss of interest in Mozart. For me, much of it has to do with my own musical maturity and increasing demands of a composer.

 

[JHC]

I don't exactly think Mozart is "lightweight" at all - that's not my problem with it. The gravitas of some of the string quartets and chamber music and the inventiveness and melodies of the late symphonies and certainly the operas are remarkable.

Well I have to disagree with you on that,If I had lived in Mozart’s time I would more than likely thought it was great but of course I have heard LvB Shostakovich Brahms etc so have to relegate him somewhat low in the pecking order.

The problem I have is that Mozart did nothing new with music; he pushed no boundaries and it's all so tonal!! Not that he wasn't going to interesting keys in his 'later' works - there was certainly that - but there's an over-familiarity with it which I find exasperating. I own so little of his recorded music and when I played the piano I found his pieces "nice" but undemanding to my ear.

That is why I call it light weight

I must have complexity, drama and daring abstract musical ideas to sustain my interest. Can I explain by saying that my 'desert island' music is the late string quartets of Beethoven, as well as his last half dozen piano sonatas. Fantastic development of ideas, almost attempting to break away from tonality itself - daring, remarkable and devastating in its concentrated sheer musicality. That's the only explanation I can provide for my loss of interest in Mozart. For me, much of it has to do with my own musical maturity and increasing demands of a composer.

I have no argument with that I built up a large collection of Mozart when I first started collecting but as I explored other composers I found him …..[and I can’t find a better description at the moment ] Light weight…..

 

[Dirigent]

I absolutely take your point, yet I have had stand-up arguments with people who think I've missed the point with Mozart - that he's profound beyond all others and that it's a deceptive 'simplicity' and my fault for not seeing it. I largely agree with YOU - I sidelined Mozart 27 years ago when I really got 'hot 'n heavy' about the Renaissance, Baroque and Romantics, right up to today. I find Mozart tedious and predictable - this is entirely MY OWN response, but I appreciate that others find him more ingenious than that. But I do stick by what I said about the string quartets etc. in my original comments. It just doesn't float my boat any more. My mother died in 1984 and she gave me my earliest musical education (from age 7). She had a Licenciate in Piano and used to joke about Mozart, rubbing the palms of her hands together rapidly and saying to me "that's Mozart for me - too much vibrato and tremolo". I couldn't stop laughing because she was so right. For me, he's the theatrical composer par excellence.

I was in your lovely country at the end of November for 2 weeks - in Auckland and the much preferred Wellington. We stayed in Parnell in Auckland and I thought to myself, "If I had to live in this city this would be the suburb". I'm amazed by the politeness, "thank you driver" when people alighted from buses. Aye!!

 

[John Watt]

If there's one thing Mozart explains in Amadeus that resonates with me,
and is the reason I like Jimi Hendrix's guitar overdub mini-symphonies,
was his explanation of why he used so many notes, how it was heard.
Mozart explained that people could understand many people talking, and singing,
when their ear for musical instruments would leave them confused, unmoved.
I can see others saying individual parts, or his piano pieces, seem lightweight.
Mozart really comes to life with all the action onstage, the various vocal groups,
and the wonderful orchestration behind it.

Yeah, I guess I'm saying the movie "Amadeus", and Mozart's life, is like one big, long opera.

 

[JHC]

I was in your lovely country at the end of November for 2 weeks - in Auckland and the much preferred Wellington. We stayed in Parnell in Auckland and I thought to myself, "If I had to live in this city this would be the suburb". I'm amazed by the politeness, "thank you driver" when people alighted from buses. Aye!!

Did you go to any concerts? I lived in Auckland for a few years but after trying a few other places settled down in the Wop waps I agree that Wellington is far nicer than Auckland.
One thing I should mention, a very good friend of mine is a Mozart lover and has been for ever he is in his early eighties but I can't resist baiting him.....all in good fun of course

 

[Dirigent]

No, we didn't go to any concerts but I did see that Freddy Kempff was going to Auckland to play Gershwin the day we were leaving to come home. Mozart lovers are music lovers, that's the most important thing for me!! It's just I feel the composer is over-rated, though I do like his piano concertos 9, 17 and 20 and his last 4 or 5 symphonies - plus The Magic Flute. But the idolatry and fetishism attached to the composer is singularly annoying. See what you think about these provocative comments from American composer, Arnold Rosner. It caused a fury on another forum I was on!!

http://www.sequenza21.com/rosner.html

My husband lived in Auckland and worked for the Union Steamship Company in 1964 (before coming to live in Australia) and that's the reason we went to the 'windy' city. I could live there - seriously - but for the weather!! And it's just that bit further from Europe!!

 

[John Watt]

Yeah, maybe okay, but, just when thoughts of "Amadeus" fade,
I start singing "Amadeus Amadeus", like the disco hit.
And please be forewarned,
after that comes "Ooooooooo, love to love you baby", by Donna Summer,
a song, that after analyzation by British researchers,
is said to musically peak 42 times in fourteen and a half minutes.
And she was never accused of singing too many notes.