Go1279

[Ghekorg7 (Ret)]

Hi,
Thank you Devs for this new version.

Some observations.

I saw that loading a set it writes the cache too. Good, but also we can disable this by unclicking the auto function... better !

Issue : You know the clavichord example I uploaded here in another thread. On this I had updated cache, compressed, losseless on and had done some settings on the appropriate file. Both files are in app data/roaming/GrandOrgue data.
This new version doesn't read settings file..... and loads my clavichord with default "original temperament" where I had set Scarlatti.
Is there something new here ?

Another thing is the drawstop fx that I managed to make them working(=sounding) from GUi with the mouse.
!261 was playing them OK, 1279 don't. Probably it doesn't let me place two stops on the same exact position (old "bug" corrected?)

Pitty as I have many sets working with drawstop fx on....
If I change place the drawstop fx stop it works(sounds) as supposed ie clicking on GUI on/off... BUT doesn't sound with the appropriate stop.

How to solve this now ? Refferencing ?

I have found that we can use drawstop fx in GO by using two different wav files , the on and the off on a dedicated stop using an invisible keyboard where all the fx are on (like blower, rossignol).
This dedicated stop has only one .wav main file (the on.wav) and one release count (the off.wav).
To work I did a silence loop at the end on the on.wav as we do the harpsichord samples. Then added the "release"=off.wav sound

Then I set in odf this DrawFX stop in the same position as its "pipes stop".
By clicking on GUI the Principal 8' we hear the on.wav and closing it the off.wav.
Midi learn was easy too ! because GO after opening the window for the principal control and clicked OK it oppened a second for the FX stop !! So I set both on the same physical button and.... VOILA !

Now with 1279 this is not working anymore like this... :-/
So, the question is how must we design it to work again ???
I had so much fun with it

It also worked on older HW1 format, but with just one combined wav file :
I merged the on.wav and off.wav into one new DrawFX1.wav and treating it like we did the older harpsichord samples : between them I inserted a silence portion, looped it and cue marked exactly at the beginning of the off sound.
The rest is the same. It works nice on MyOrgan too ! See the attached pic

Another tip : If we use tracker fx as two wav files (att-rel) we must create a silence loop at the end on att wav, else we don't hear the release
On this 1279 has no issues at all.

Draw fx are important for me at the moment because I'm processing a totally new set for GO , a Historic Sicilian Organ and I want all these noisy stuff to be on, working, as I belive they add max to the realism of our sets. Also to release a new GO set, (the first?) to have them all on board.

To help you understand how I did it I copy here a portion of my "in progress" odf . See also that each fx has the harmonic number as 32 for the 1st oct and then the appropriate midiKey number to work with the same sound (not bassy or high pitched) when changing temperaments. Each fx on a specific key. For some reason noise fx are considered as being rooted in the middle C - 060.
Also see that Cornett stop uses the way for HW1/MO and the Principale II the release count function :

[Manual002]
Name=FX Manual
MIDIInputNumber=009
NumberOfLogicalKeys=49
NumberOfAccessibleKeys=49
FirstAccessibleKeyLogicalKeyNumber=1
FirstAccessibleKeyMIDINoteNumber=36
NumberOfStops=3
;Blower on/off switch
Stop001=201
;Cornetta lever on/off
Stop002=202
;PrincipaleII lever on/off
Stop003=203
NumberOfCouplers=0
NumberOfTremulants=0
NumberOfDivisionals=0
Displayed=N

;##########################################################################
;EFFECTS STOPS SECTONS.
;##########################################################################

[Stop201]
Name=Blower on/off switch
NumberOfLogicalPipes=1
NumberOfAccessiblePipes=1
FirstAccessiblePipeLogicalPipeNumber=001
FirstAccessiblePipeLogicalKeyNumber=001
WindchestGroup=001
Percussive=N
DefaultToEngaged=Y
GCState=-1
DisplayInInvertedState=N
DispDrawstopCol=1
DispDrawstopRow=9
DispLabelColour=Dark Green
DispLabelFontSize=Normal
Displayed=Y
DispImageNum=1
AmplitudeLevel=21
Pipe001=.\Sounds\Blower\blowernoise.wav
Pipe001HarmonicNumber=32
Pipe001LoadRelease=Y

[Stop202]
Name=Cornetta
NumberOfLogicalPipes=1
NumberOfAccessiblePipes=1
FirstAccessiblePipeLogicalPipeNumber=001
FirstAccessiblePipeLogicalKeyNumber=002
WindchestGroup=001
Percussive=N
DefaultToEngaged=N
DisplayInInvertedState=N
Displayed=Y
DispDrawstopCol=3
DispDrawstopRow=5
PositionX=620
DispLabelColour=Dark Red
DispLabelFontSize=Large
DispImageNum=2
AmplitudeLevel=40
Pipe001=.\Sounds\STOPS\CornettLeverOn)Off.wav
Pipe001HarmonicNumber=32
Pipe001PitchCorrection=-100
Pipe001LoadRelease=Y

[Stop203]
Name=Principale II
NumberOfLogicalPipes=1
NumberOfAccessiblePipes=1
FirstAccessiblePipeLogicalPipeNumber=001
FirstAccessiblePipeLogicalKeyNumber=003
WindchestGroup=001
Percussive=N
DefaultToEngaged=N
DisplayInInvertedState=N
Displayed=Y
DispDrawstopCol=3
DispDrawstopRow=1
PositionX=620
DispLabelColour=Dark Red
DispLabelFontSize=Large
DispImageNum=2
AmplitudeLevel=30
HarmonicNumber=8
Pipe001=.\Sounds\STOPS\DrawFX.wav
Pipe001MIDIKeyNumber=038
Pipe001LoadRelease=N
Pipe001ReleaseCount=1
Pipe001Release001=.\Sounds\STOPS\PushFX.wav
Pipe001Release001CuePoint=0
Pipe001Release001MaxKeyPressTime=-1

I hope you find those lines above interesting and helpfull
Best
Panos

 

[Ghekorg7 (Ret)]

I found a way but has many cons :

I separated the main pipes stop and the drawFX stop from the same position (since it doesn't work anymore like this) and set the drawFX as not displayed.
I set both the same shortcutKey.
Hitting the same key on computer's keyboard activates both so we hear the draw stop sound and the off sound when pressing again the same key.
This gives the effect, but :
Doesn't work with the mouse when we click the main stop and also we cannot assign our physical button to the fx stop :-/

I tried setting a second rank on the main stop (the first has the pipes) which has the sole pipe as it works for effects. No joy , the effect sound was sounding when playing on the keyboard along with the same note/pipe (for example 036-C).

The way Lars implemented (additional panel) works with assigning physical buttons but not on GUI :-(

I have 1261 in a USB stick (only the main .exe file and the help file) and it works from there in parallel with 1279 which is on main C:\Program Files\GrandOrgue.
Re-opening the set with 1261 it works as before (as described in the openning thread).


This is my solution for my pleasure at the moment (ie using 1261) waiting for positive feedback on the matter.
But, I cannot release a new set saying "please use 1261 for draw fx to work" ! LOL LOL :-D

and I'm thinkin'..... since it worked, even as a non wanted/non correct behaviour and with the correct GO build (1279) it doesn't, why change/correct it ??

Best
Panos

 

[L.Palo]

Hi!

I guess you lost that "bug/feature" because it was corrected (it really should not be possible to put many drawstops in one place and activate them all with a single click, that's not the way an organ should work...). What we really need is a good intentional built-in feature for the drawstop effects (noises) that doesn't rely on workarounds. But we do have to understand that it takes time to implement it in a good way and also lots of other things might have higher priority to fix/do first. Much of the work that's done to improve GrandOrgue happens in the quiet and is not immediately visible to the user, still it's necessary in order to progress and have a good foundation for the future.

So... for the moment we'll have to be patient about it! I suggest that you do prepare the drawstop noises for a set even though we cannot yet use them. Sooner or later we'll be able to have them working!

Kind regards

Lars P

 

[e9925248]

Sound-Effects for stops have never been supported by GO. I'm currently working on a larger topic, which can also be used to model these sound effects.

Issue : You know the clavichord example I uploaded here in another thread. On this I had updated cache, compressed, losseless on and had done some settings on the appropriate file. Both files are in app data/roaming/GrandOrgue data.
This new version doesn't read settings file..... and loads my clavichord with default "original temperament" where I had set Scarlatti.
Is there something new here ?

Did you hit save?

PS: I hope, that I have not missed a question from your long post.

 

[Ghekorg7 (Ret)]

Hi !
Thanks Martin, I didn't hit save ... well I hit it ... but when must I ?
I mean :

> I have 1261, use Clavichord, save settings, update cache. Everytime I open it (desktop shortcut) works as I have set, also loads in a second short of speak.
> New version is on (1279)
> download > Install (over the existing 1261) > load a test set (clavichord) > see it writes cache in auto - not reading the existing cache > deselect this function from Audio/Midi settings > delete this new cache (as I didn't want it - already have one)
> Double click my shortcut for clavichord, GO 1279 opens and loads it reading old cache
> Doesn't read my settings : I see original temperament instead of Scarlatti
> I select Scarlatti again and hit save.
> Now all OK.

This was the procedure I did. Is this OK ?

@Lars
My dear friend I have all the patience in the world, I know the hard work behind the peacefull screen of GO , though let me tell you my thoughts.
Unison off is not a feature on the real organs, yes? Why we have it in VPO ?
I see VPO, better as I call them computer based organs (CBO), as totally independed instruments, not only simulations of real things. There was an event where an organist/user of my Bridge model for jOrgan played with it in concert with a real orchestra and the Maestro was very impressed with the sound.
And if a workaround works and gives results I accept it. The result counts in every thing in life. The way of reaching the result may vary of course.
So, I'm sayin', if something "not correct" gives the result, why remove it ? And why remove it since there isn't yet the "correct" solution ready ??

The above thoughts are theoritical of course , as nowdays we have many options at hand. For example :
I release a new set and include GO1261 with it, saying that if one wants drawFX use this.
If not use the lastest mainstream version.
I'll include two odf files of course, in main folder I will include all files, so everyone's happy
No?

All my best
Panos

 

[L.Palo]

Hi!

In mechanical action organs I've certainly never encountered a unison off, but in electrical action (still real pipes sounding on the windchest!) it's no problem to have one if one wants it.

I certainly agree that the sounds of many virtual organs might be able to fool a listener to believe it's a real organ playing if the conditions are right, after all with real recorded samples - at a certain point there was a real organ sounding... For me the quest for increased realism is more a question of how good we can get the playing experience too. And there I do think that the noise effects are necessary as they usually are an integral part of the organ playing experience.

Why correct something that's wrong or working in a way we don't expect it to work? Well, I believe that the fix that "corrected" the behaviour (rev 1265) is labeled "Don't handle mouse events twice" in svn, so it's actually a general fix in how one expect a GUI to work - the visible object (and only that) is the one that will act when it's clicked on. In the end we'll have a solid built in functionality and a vpo software that we can expect to behave in a logical way.

We can always include multiple odfs with our samplesets and I think it's inevitable that we will have to update them now and then to certain degrees as evolution continues to go on... Better to try to embrace it than to fight it!

Kind regards

Lars P

 

[Ghekorg7 (Ret)]

Hi Lars
How can disagree and agree at the same time ? LOL
I understand how a program should be, logical with functions that make sense ect
But we are humans and when a theme arises we want the solution asap. So in this view I can accept a mistake that works, until the right way of the solution is to be found.
It's a kinda strategy to get to the desired point regardless of which route is to be passed, so any mean that suits this purpose is acceptable.
And most of the times this route requires a little fantasy to be found

Multiple odf... YES !!! we must, as set creators, to provide many options.
So I'm planning to do.
And I'll probably include 1261 for those who want the fx regardless of right or wrong with an odf for AND the mainstream way (latest GO built) in another !
But anyway maybe this is with no base, as by the time I'll be ready for release (you know better than anyone how long ... LOL) the solution in a correct software way will be available !!
I remember you saying.... "miracles.... can happen !"

Best
Panos

 

[e9925248]

Changing loading parameters requires GO to reload the sampleset => it will start with the last saved settings. Not every change (eg. changing stop state) is considered a modification, which yields to the save at closing message.

GO is licensed under the GPL: You are free to redistribute GO in source and binary forms under the GPL (even with modifications). You are also free to use it for any purpose in any way.
Please look at point 3 of the license for the details (http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-2.0.en.html).

So you are free to do what you intended. But: 1261 is a dead end and will not see any updates/support. If anybody asks why it won't work in future GO versions, I'll tell them, that your ODF is broken

To unsion off:
I can point you to a pneumatic tracker organ in Vienna, which feature a "Normal-Koppel". This provides a unsion off behaviour - but I don't remember, if on means couple or don't couple.

 

[Ghekorg7 (Ret)]

Hi Martin, Thanks.

Well I said I will provide two odf files, one for 1261 and one for the latest GO build, also explaining that (at this time in future) draw fx work with 1261 as an interim measure untill the proper way is on. If they want updated versions of the organ in question will have to work with the updated odf according to the latest GO build.
So, I thing this way everyone will be happy.

And some info that maybe you'll find useful :
Original HW1 does not allow double stop or any element placement on GUI - Just tested (LOL)
Also cannot play a simple effect like blower noise the way we do it in GO (sole pipe in a stop second invisible keyboard)
MyOrgan on the other side it allows it. So maybe this thing came from Kloria thing and lived on till and up to 1261.
But you cannot argue that it is real fun to see that the old MO 1.0.6 , based on a mistake, can have blower noise, rossignol and drawstop fx along with tracker and pipes ! No?
:-D :-D

 

[L.Palo]

Hi!

MyOrgan on the other side it allows it. So maybe this thing came from Kloria thing and lived on till and up to 1261.

This should not be surprising really. GrandOrgue has it's roots in MyOrgan code that never had anything in common with HW1 code! It was just the organ definition format that was copied.

Needless to say, GrandOrgue is since long developed independently both from its MyOrgan roots and HW current.

But you cannot argue that it is real fun to see that the old MO 1.0.6 , based on a mistake, can have blower noise, rossignol and drawstop fx along with tracker and pipes ! No?
:-D :-D

Well, I can give you credit for discovering the ability to add drawstop effects (in the old releases)! Clever thinking "outside of the box". I never thought about solving the problem in that way. Nor am I thinking about it nowadays either, instead I stick with that we need a proper implementation of this feature.

Kind regards

Lars P

 

[Ghekorg7 (Ret)]

Hi Lars !

Well this statement must be highlighted : MyOrgan has nothing to do with HW1 ! YES ! and Yes, only the .organ file (HW1 format) is the common place.
That's why we see Milan digital in GO credits. and by the way HW1 format is discontinued/abandoned from when HW2 was on, in favour of the more complex CODF ect

Yes, I'm looking forward on the proper way of creating the drawstop fx in latest GO.
And... if I may sugest, in jOrgan we're doing them long ago, yes maybe in a complex way of a series of midi commands (like when activeted - deactivate ect) but its there workin' (see my Bridge model disposition having everything... well.. almost LOL), so possibly this may be the start of realising it in GO ?

So far we know that creating an invisible keyboard (manual in GO) and creating one pipe stops we can have a sound speaking when this stop is activated and another sound when it's off (works both ways : single wav with two sounds separated by silence loop, cue on second's start - two wav files, one main with loop at the end, second as release count). This is workin' on 1279 too. I mean if we place this stop in a different place than its main "pipe stop". This may be main console or extra panel as you wisely created it.

Now the solution must be a link between the main "pipe stop" and the drawstop fx stop, so that they both can be activated in the same time when we click on main stop.
Or
Create a function on main stop where we can : a) set the appropriate rank (s) as usual and b) set the drawstop rank sounding when this main stop is on.
Like :
DrawstopPipe001=.\Stops\StopFX01.wav
DrawstopPipe001ReleaseCount=1
DrawstopPipe001Release001=.\Stops\StopFX01R.wav
or
DrawstopAttack=.\Stops\StopFX01.wav
DrawstopRelease=.\Stops\StopFX01R.wav
or something like that, before or after Rank (s) count
Or
?

Furthermore : as I was saying about results, in fact your extra panel solution gives the effect to the outside world when properly one has set his physical controls
Also by creating those stopfx and set them invisible and set the same shortcutKey on both fx and main we get the effect by hitting the correspondent computer key.
This last one gives the result for those of us (I know many) who are using an extra computer keyboard for controlling the stops, which keys' are not smaller than my EL90's voice selection physical buttons !
For example one can have a usb keyboard and an extra computer keyboard (usb) and create a wooden single manual controler incorporating both and connecting them to the computer with a usb hub, and so on......

Hmmm exciting isn't it ?

 

[Dorsetmike]

Rather than a full K/B why not USB numeric keypads, intended for use with laptops prices range from £2.99 upwards. They have anything from 18 to 22 keys set out similar to the keypad on a full K/B, 4 columns of 5 or 6 rows, some keys double size, some have a double width key for 0, others have a normal size 0 key and a 00 key, enter is usually double height, a few have an additional row of function keys.

You could use one keypad for each manual to control up to 18 or more ranks, 2 pads each side would do for a 3 manual with pedal and might leave a few keys for divisionals or generals. Make your own labels to stick on the keys. You can also get them with larger keys than normal.

 

[Ghekorg7 (Ret)]

Hi Mike !

YES ! I got one meself too. I got it for 7euros and it works...... GREAT. Sorry I forgot to mention it too :-(
And lets say one gets a CME M-key 49notes and a coupla num pads it's easy then to separate keys and two circuits from the plastic CME case and design a wooden keyboard controller where the two num pads can be on top on rectangular opennings between the music stand ! All three can have their usb into a hub so one can see just one usb cable running out of this controller.

Mmmmmm tempted to start a project like this ?

 

[L.Palo]

I think we got quite a bit off topic, but it's an interesting new topic that emerged - a complete stop switch board built from a computer keyboard! Would indeed be interesting to see what one could do with such an approach, even though I think it would be easier and more flexible to use another MIDI keyboard that one could butcher for the purpose.

How did you think about using multiple numeric keypads? Did you intend to have one of them switched with numlock all the time? Otherwise I think the keybindings won't work as they will send the same keycodes... Which is one of the limitations of using the shortcut keys instead of MIDI. The main advantage would be how easy (and cheap) it could be to construct.

Kind regards

Lars P

 

[Ghekorg7 (Ret)]

Hi Lars !

Well quite off topic and not so, considering we're talkin' about 1279 and it's novelties/corrections stop control ect !. :-D LOL

I'm using a Lunaris num pad using the numerals, into a usb x7 hub (powered) along with Korg Nanokey (usb)
The second Num pad will be set not to numerals (arrows, pg up down ect) I don't know if it work indeed. I didn't got a second because I'm so full with one plus the Nanokey.

I'll try to upload a photo on how I use them all together. Nanokey is great CC controller and I'm using its 25 keys for stop control and its mod weel for tremulant, Num pad is for generals and some extra couplers ect.
As I'm using two keyboards, CME M-key 49 (USB) and Evolution MK-125 (midi 25 notes) along with Roland PK-5A 13 note pedalboard, I have extra buttons for more control in need : MK125 has 6 preset buttons and program change ones and another Mod wheel, pitch bend and sustain pedal (= tira ripieno, appels). M-key has two more : sustain pedal and Expresion pedal plus a CC7 volume control.
As you see I'm full and this setup fits great smaller organs in the Rennaisance and early Baroque era.

GO 1279 responds on the spot on any of these with ease, programming them is a piece of cake with right click and save. - superb work from GO devs here.

Indeed I don't know how a second Num pad will work but it's a nice Idea !

Fun !

 

[e9925248]

That's why we see Milan digital in GO credits.

Incorrect. See r11 in our SVN.
Kirk Meyer wanted to transfer the copyright of MyOrgan to MDA. We have followed his request, but don't know, if MDA has accepted it. So maybe (C) MDA means (C) Kirk Meyer.

 

[e9925248]

How did you think about using multiple numeric keypads? Did you intend to have one of them switched with numlock all the time? Otherwise I think the keybindings won't work as they will send the same keycodes... Which is one of the limitations of using the shortcut keys instead of MIDI. The main advantage would be how easy (and cheap) it could be to construct.

GO does not differentiate between PC keyboards. All keys with the same function (=key code) are bound together.

Starting to differentiate between keyboards would mean to create/maintain three different code bases (Linux, Windows, OS X). The focus controls, which application receives key presses - so it is not a very reliable way (eg. if another application raises). Therefore still MIDI is the preferred way of input and mutli-keyboard support is not on my roadmap.

 

[Ghekorg7 (Ret)]

Incorrect. See r11 in our SVN.
Kirk Meyer wanted to transfer the copyright of MyOrgan to MDA. We have followed his request, but don't know, if MDA has accepted it. So maybe (C) MDA means (C) Kirk Meyer.

Well, I didn't know that ! I supposed that .organ file was the main thing, because Martin Dyde is the creator AFAIK (no?)
Kirk created MO of course and as he used .organ (HW1) file I thought this was the issue...
Where is Kirk nowdays ?

 

[Ghekorg7 (Ret)]

GO does not differentiate between PC keyboards. All keys with the same function (=key code) are bound together.

Starting to differentiate between keyboards would mean to create/maintain three different code bases (Linux, Windows, OS X). The focus controls, which application receives key presses - so it is not a very reliable way (eg. if another application raises). Therefore still MIDI is the preferred way of input and mutli-keyboard support is not on my roadmap.

The truth is that you have a point here : Nanokey is Midi CC controller and Keyboard. As CC is superior and using its dependent software I can control even the old GO1 and 2 where the stop control with note on/off had no toggle.... Nanokey can be set to toggle note on/off commands like press C2 stays on, pressing again goes off, which a num pad cannot.
It's a simplified example... but using a num pad for generals controller (shortcuts set) is great if one is with a very simple physical keyboard.

Bottom line to be kinda on topic, GO 1279 works superbly with these, in any combination. Great work !

 

[e9925248]

I have experiment with the stop noise samples from Kalvtrask. The main issue is, that the noise starts so late, that the pipes are already sounding.

To reproduce just overlay a sample + stop noise in a audio editor.