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Thread: No Nazard stop

  1. #1
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    No Nazard stop

    Hi all

    Is there any way to create a sound like that of a Nazard with other stops? I'm at a disadvantage with my instrument as it only has such stops as a harmonic flute 4' fifteenth 2', choir flutes, gamba, lieblich gedackt and the usual on the swell. Was just womdering how I could single out a chorale prelude line for example.

    thanks
    Kev
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bach>Meer View Post
    Is there any way to create a sound like that of a Nazard with other stops? I'm at a disadvantage with my instrument as it only has such stops as a harmonic flute 4' fifteenth 2', choir flutes, gamba, lieblich gedackt and the usual on the swell.
    Hi there,

    Depending on the kind of music and texture of the piece, you can try a number of other combinations.

    An 8' + 2' combination is often colourful and useful for chorale tunes in baroque music.

    Another option -- my personal favourite -- is to use the 4' flute on its own. You can utilize this single stop in interesting ways:
    1. play the solo as it is written (the 4' stop will make it sound one octave higher) for a bright, cheery sound, or;
    2. play the 4' flute one octave down on the keyboard (making it sound like an 8' stop) for a deep, rich, full-sounding solo.


    You say that you have a 4' harmonic flute; that's a useful stop because it has such interesting overtones! The voicing of the 4' flute may be different between the low-end and the high-end, which adds character and might help make it seem like you have an extra solo stop on your organ.

    Do you have any reed stops (Oboe, Trumpet, Crumhorn, etc.)?

    In the end, you have to try various combinations and trust your ears to help make a decision. If your organ doesn't have the stops that the piece calls for, you're going to have to use your own judgement.

    Hope this helps.

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    Administrator Krummhorn's Avatar
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    Many of us have limited resources on our church organs ... I play on a II/9 Möller and have figured out how to register it for most organ literature.
    I have a [wired] mutation stop - Larigot 1-1/3 - that speaks off the Gemshorn rank. I find that it works out better as a solo stop when registered with the 4' flute and played an octave lower, in that manner it then sounds like an 8' with a 2-2/3' nazard.

    I also love my 4' Gedeckt as a solo stop on the great - especially with the tremulant, accompanied by the Gemshorn Celeste on the swell.

    I was able to achieve a 'renaissance' type of registration recently by using the Swell 16' reed (box closed) coupled to the Great with the 8' Gedeckt, 4' Principal and 2' Gedeckt.

    Another nice solo combination is using a 16' and 2' flute ...

    Even though my church organ is but 9 ranks, I have managed to execute the Franck A Minor Chorale and even the Mendelssohn Sonata I in concert with great success.
    It requires lots of logistic planning, especially since I have but 4 pistons at my disposal, so there is lots of stop switching with the fingers while playing in the upper and lower registers.

    I never let the organs limitations stop me from playing the literature . . . I get along with what I have to work with, and I make it work for me.

    Lars A.

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    Captain of Water Music pcnd5584's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bach>Meer View Post
    Hi all

    Is there any way to create a sound like that of a Nazard with other stops? I'm at a disadvantage with my instrument as it only has such stops as a harmonic flute 4' fifteenth 2', choir flutes, gamba, lieblich gedackt and the usual on the swell. Was just womdering how I could single out a chorale prelude line for example.

    thanks
    Kev

    Possibly one answer is to use the Clarinet on the Choir Organ - perhaps with the 4ft. Flauto Traverso. However, given the standard voicing of a Romantic instrument by Conacher, trying to achieve a Nazard and flute effect is asking the instrument to do something it was never designed to cope with.

    Another approach is to find a solo stop which gives a good singing line and simply use this. This might, for example be a 4ft. flute (or two) down an octave. I would be cautious about transposing the melody up an octave (by using only a 4ft. flute). Depending on the piece, this might simply make the melody stand away from the accompaniment. What about the Swell Oboe? If it is well voiced, this stop can be hauntingly beautiful. Another possibility is to play the melody on the the G.O. Gamba and the 4ft. Harmonic Flute (but without the Swell or Choir organs coupled to the G.O.) Whilst this registration is both beautiful and effective on my 'own' church instrument, naturally it will depend on the voicing of the individual ranks and the overall aural balance. Is there a particular piece which you have in mind? It would help to know.

    I should regard an 8ft. and 2ft. combination to be more useful in counterpoint - but not really as a solo, particularly for a chorale melody. If your Choir 8ft. and 4ft. flutes are strong enough (or those on the G.O. are not too big or wooly), this might be better. But an 8ft. and 2ft. combination is likely to be too 'spiky' for a melodic line - particularly in a more lyrical or reflective piece. (However, this registration can be quite effective in the Gavotte, from S. Wesley's Air and Gavotte, for example.)
    Last edited by pcnd5584; Jan-15-2014 at 00:21.
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  5. #5
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    Anyone who can do the Franck A minor on nine ranks has a way with pipes. How do you handle that beautiful slow section??

    A Nazard is usually a 2-2/3, and probably in many cases plays off some 8 or 4 ft. rank. (Most likely 4) There must be reasons why many organs have 73 notes on the choir and/or swell. With the 'super-octave' coupler, they need to be there if you are going that high.

    I find it interesting that Cavaille-Coll organs always have "octaves graves", but rarely a 4-foot coupler. Everyone knows there have been differences in organ-building ideas over the years and centuries, so what you may see changes. C.-C. doesn't seem to have been big on couplers. I've read that St. Sulpice got a "Recit" to "Positif" coupler decades after the organ was originally built. Maybe Widor wanted a little more variety.

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    Captain of Water Music pcnd5584's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dll927 View Post
    ... A Nazard is usually a 2-2/3, and probably in many cases plays off some 8 or 4 ft. rank. (Most likely 4) ...

    Only if the instrument in question is constructed either partly or entirely on the extension system. Here in the UK, it is far more usual to find a Nazard (if present) as a separate rank. This is far better. If the Nazard is extended, there will be an unsatisfactory result, partly due to the inability to reconcile the tuning of the mutation with unison- and octave-sounding ranks and also because the voicing will depend entirely on the parent rank.
    The result is inevitably a compromise; often reminiscent of the 'mewling synthetics' which Cecil Clutton detested.


    Quote Originally Posted by dll927 View Post
    I find it interesting that Cavaille-Coll organs always have "octaves graves", but rarely a 4-foot coupler. Everyone knows there have been differences in organ-building ideas over the years and centuries, so what you may see changes. C.-C. doesn't seem to have been big on couplers. I've read that St. Sulpice got a "Recit" to "Positif" coupler decades after the organ was originally built. Maybe Widor wanted a little more variety.
    The presence of an Octaves Graves coupler on a number of instruments by Cavaillé-Coll reflects the tendency of French composers (particularly of the Symphonic school) to write some of their music comparatively high in the stave - many French toccatas and final movements of organ symphonies are written so, for example. The introduction of the Octaves Graves redressed the aural balance, and filled-in what would otherwise have been a 'sonic gap'. Due to the scaling and nature of the voicing of French chorus reeds, the Octaves Graves does not produce a muddy or heavy effect - even when a 16ft. Bombarde is used on one or more claviers.

    Widor also had the order of the claviers altered at S. Sulpice.
    Last edited by pcnd5584; Jan-22-2014 at 23:54.
    Pierre Cochereau rocked, man.

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    Administrator Krummhorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dll927 View Post
    Anyone who can do the Franck A minor on nine ranks has a way with pipes. How do you handle that beautiful slow section?? . . .
    The Adagio movement is registered with the 8' reed with 4' flute & trem for the solo - box shut!! Accompanied by 8' Gedackt & 8' Gemshorn on Great.
    Pedal, 16' Bourdon, 8' Gedackt.

    The section that follows the Adagio I register with the solo in the Great (8' Principal with swell to great coupler), and 8' Gemshorn celeste with 8' and 4' flutes in the Swell. Doing so, I am then already "set-up" (without use of any piston) to transition to the Great with both hands.

    Judicious use of the Crescendo shoe is required throughout the piece - as I have been presiding over this console since 1982, I know exactly what and when a stop is going to add using that shoe. Towards the end, (on the last page) I have to "pull back" on the registration so that there is something to "go to" for the last A Major chord.

    I must use the Crescendo shoe in lieu of pistons, even during choral accompaniment ... I have 4 Generals, and that's it ... I have had a page turner add or remove stops on occasion, but usually will work that out for myself, as when in the upper regions of the Swell manual, I can use my fingers to add or remove certain Great stops.
    My console has rocker tabs for all the stops. There is one coupler: Sw to Gt, and separate trem for each manual.

  8. #8
    Commodore con Forza Soubasse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bach>Meer View Post
    Hi all

    Is there any way to create a sound like that of a Nazard with other stops? I'm at a disadvantage with my instrument as it only has such stops as a harmonic flute 4' fifteenth 2', choir flutes, gamba, lieblich gedackt and the usual on the swell. Was just womdering how I could single out a chorale prelude line for example.

    thanks
    Kev
    There have been plenty of good suggestions already made. Looking through your summary of available stops, my only other suggestion would be the Gamba with 4' flute. It would be largely dependent on the voicing of the Gamba, but some string stops can have a bright voicing with emphasis on upper harmonics, it could provide you with a bit of fundamental, then with the 4' and the upper harmonics of the string stop giving the "illusion" of a 2 2/3. Just a thought.
    On the other hand, you could go to the extreme that a colleague of mine did some decades ago. He was giving a recital (an exam recital I think) on an instrument with no mutations, but was desperate for a cornet registration in two of the early works he was playing. He and a friend spent the better part of the previous night inside the organ, physically shifting the pipes of a 4' and 2' flute rank (in the top three octaves only) to enable a Nazard and Tierce rank !!
    Last edited by Soubasse; Jan-23-2014 at 21:03.
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    Captain of Water Music pcnd5584's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soubasse View Post
    There have been plenty of good suggestions already made. Looking through your summary of available stops, my only other suggestion would be the Gamba with 4' flute.
    I already mentioned this - see above.
    Pierre Cochereau rocked, man.

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    Yes, Widor did have the 4th and 5th manuals reversed. Originally the Recit was on the 5th manual, and it was probably a good reach on that console, especially if there was much pedal work. He is also reputed to have considered the pedal division "inadequate". But looking at stop lists of various C.-C. organs, many of them do not have very large pedal divisions. One probably had to depend more on the "tirasses" or manual-to-pedal couplers. Since Pedal would generally have the largest (and most expensive) pipes, it could have been space considerations, budgeting, or both. But has anybody ever complained about not being able to hear that grand instrument?

    I have often wondered what most American organists would do at St.Sulpice, if they dared to ask to play it. It may have been state of the art in 1862, but we've come a long way since. And there would be loud howls if anybody suggested modernizing it.

    Speaking of the Recit, that pedal that controls the shutters must be a first class monstrosity. It's way over on the right side and probably has a notch at the bottom to hold the shutters open. Which means it surely can't be used part way open. Of course, Roth, to say nothing of Widor, has played the thing long enough that he probably thinks all that is normal!!
    Last edited by dll927; Jan-25-2014 at 20:26.

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    Captain of Water Music pcnd5584's Avatar
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    Indeed. And what a superb instrument it is - equally at home with Bach as with the French symphonic school.

    With regard to the size of the Pédale Orgue on many of the larger instruments by Cavaillé-Coll, S. Sernin has only ten stops - but this does include a stupendous 32ft. reed. (The 32ft. flue is partly acoustic in the bass). Nôtre-Dame had one of the largest Pédale divisions which Cavaillé-Coll ever built, with those at S. Ouen (Rouen) and Biarritz (now in the Basilique de Sacré-Cœur) also being comparatively large. It was not unusual for there to be but one solitary 16ft. flue - often an open rank, as at Ste. Clotilde.

    Of course, the expression pedal for the Récit on the Cavaillé-Coll instrument at Nôtre-Dame de Paris was originally in the same position (on the old 'amphitheatre' console), but Vierne had it moved to the centre for convenience.
    Last edited by pcnd5584; Jan-27-2014 at 23:31.
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  13. #12
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    There is a whole question that has long intrigued me -- why there are so many European organs that are still essentially as they were originally built, while we Americans seem to think an organ has to be revamped every 30 or so years. It may say something about the workmanship involved.

    I sometimes wonder about the exact ownership of the organs in Europe, or who decides such things. Some European countries have a Ministry of Culture in the government, and that may have some influence on how things are done. The justly famous organ at St. Bavo in Haarlem, Holland supposedly belongs to the city, which seems like a rather unusual arrangement. And that one dates back to something like the 1730's. Not exactly the most modern one around, but that case is a real showpiece.

    Yes, I know -- many Cavaille-Coll organs have been replaced - notably Notre Dame, Ste. Clotilde, etc. Or if not replaced, at least subtantially altered by electrification, etc.
    Last edited by dll927; Jan-28-2014 at 22:24.

  14. #13
    Captain of Water Music pcnd5584's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dll927 View Post
    There is a whole question that has long intrigued me -- why there are so many European organs that are still essentially as they were originally built, while we Americans seem to think an organ has to be revamped every 30 or so years. It may say something about the workmanship involved.

    Please bear with me, if this sounds a little blunt - it is not intended to offend; rather to attempt to answer your question.

    I suspect that it is a matter of cultural conditioning. Would it be fair to say that, generally, Americans expect instant gratification; i.e., if they want something, they must have it - and straight away? However in the UK (and, in some cases, continental Europe), there is a greater respect for history and historical items, whether they be buildings, documents - or organs, for example. Thus, we allow the respect for these instruments and their history often to take precedence over any desire to modernise, or to alter for the sake of convenience.

    Now, of course, this is a generalisation on both counts. There are probably several American organists who cherish and respect older instruments over which they hold incumbency. In the same way, there are some notorious examples of beautiful and perfectly serviceable instruments in the UK which have been consigned wholesale to the scrap-heap, simply because the resident organist or director of music wished to have a new toy.

    Of course, whilst workmanship might be a contributing factor, I doubt that it is the main reason. Bad workmanship is almost certainly not the sole preserve of the US.

    Quote Originally Posted by dll927 View Post
    I sometimes wonder about the exact ownership of the organs in Europe, or who decides such things. Some European countries have a Ministry of Culture in the government, and that may have some influence on how things are done. The justly famous organ at St. Bavo in Haarlem, Holland supposedly belongs to the city, which seems like a rather unusual arrangement. And that one dates back to something like the 1730's. Not exactly the most modern one around, but that case is a real showpiece.
    Although, perhaps somewhat ironically, the organ at Sint Bavokerk, Haarlem, The Netherlands, has been altered - and quite significantly. The last restoration (by Marcussen, in 1959-61) was, to say the least, controversial. For a start, a new console and action chassis were provided. Secondly, a new wind system - on a lower pressure * - was provided. In addition, there were several new ranks of pipes added - including two new multi-rank Mixtures. Furthermore, the glorious case was totally 'restored'. Unfortunately, apparently, it now looks rather different to the way it did prior to the 1959-61 work. A spokesperson for Marcussen did admit afterwards that the colour of the wood stain chosen for the brown parts of the case was significantly more red than was expected - or planned. Apparently, those who have some vague memory of the instrument from before the 1959-61 restoration tend to be of the opinion that it is now rather difficult to gain an accurate impression of exactly how it would have sounded in 1958. They state that Marcussen's tonal additions, re-balancing and other voicing work was rather more far-reaching than might be supposed.



    * This alone is likely to have made a clearly perceptible difference in the overall aural effect of the instrument; and, in a number of cases, even with regard to individual ranks.


    Quote Originally Posted by dll927 View Post
    Yes, I know -- many Cavaille-Coll organs have been replaced - notably Notre Dame, Ste. Clotilde, etc. Or if not replaced, at least subtantially altered by electrification, etc.
    Indeed. And whilst I might like the way the organ of Nôtre-Dame de Paris sounded (and the console looked) in and around the 1970s, conversely, I wish wholeheartedly that the French government had declined to give Charles Tournemire any finding at all at the time of his ill-advised rebuild. To treat the organ of Franck with such a cavalier attitude is, as far as I am concerned, nothing short of criminal.

    Now, before you accuse me of double-standards, it is worth remembering that the state of the instrument in Ste. Clotilde in about 1930 was rather better than that of Nôtre-Dame, in either 1930 or 1954. The changes which Vierne commissioned and later, the comprehensive rebuild and enlargement, as planned by Cochereau and executed by Jean Hermann and (after Hermann's death) Robert Boisseau, to my mind showed far more respect for the original instrument.
    Last edited by pcnd5584; Jan-29-2014 at 19:51.
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