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Thread: Quotes in classical works

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    Vice Admiral Virtuoso Dorsetmike's Avatar
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    Quotes in classical works

    I was listening to some Handel Organ concerti this morning and noticed some phrases from Messiah "quoted" in one of them Op7 No3; I also thought I heard a couple of other "quotes" in subsequent pieces but as I was less familiar with them (the quotes) I couldn't say for certain.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhqnPwuRaro

    Are there any other examples in other composers works?
    Cheers MIKE.

    How many roads must a man walk down ... ... before he admits he's lost?

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    Chief assistant to the assistant chief JHC's Avatar
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    Mike it is very common and not just their own works, Bax in one of his symphonies quotes Shostakovitch "Leningrad sym" from memory it is Bax 5, I think it is a form of compliment as opposed to plagiarism. I will have to check but I brought this up with Steve on a thread a few weeks ago. PS An interesting topic for classical nuts.

    The organ concertos were played during intervals of longer works if I remember correctly, so the one you mention may have been intended for the Messiah ?
    Last edited by JHC; May-06-2014 at 00:39.
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    Vice Admiral Virtuoso Dorsetmike's Avatar
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    There was more than one Messiah quote, one in Op7 Nº3 can't remember which one the other Messiah quote was in (that I recognised).

    I've noticed a couple of Buxtehude quotes in JS Bach works, some more than just a few bars.
    Cheers MIKE.

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    Chief assistant to the assistant chief JHC's Avatar
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    The motif Quotes in classical works-lvb-fate-motif-png from Beethoven’s 5th Sym is another that gets used time and time again I have picked up references to it in other works by LvB including the StQt’s I can’t name them off hand but smile to myself when I pick it up it is also used by other composers and in other genres, but as I don’t listen to pop I really have no idea


    Quote from www Blog.
    Nowadays, it is said that if 8 or more measures of a piece have the same, similar or closely related sounds with another, it would be considered a plagiarized work. While that may be the modern regulation, it is with the utmost difficulty to say that the same thing applies to music from the past, especially classical. Back in the days of Mozart and other well-known musical prodigies, the concept of plagiarism was vague. Recognizing plagiarism as immoral is something that commenced in the 18th century and slowly gained support henceforth. It was certainly out of Beethoven’s time to consider “copying” as a “sinful crime to commit”, but rather a natural thing to do. If a certain motif or a melody sounded good to one’s ears, it would not be strange to make an altered version of it and use it in one’s work. The abundance of variations made by countless musicians substantiates this idea.
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    Vice Admiral Virtuoso Mat's Avatar
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    Try these two:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hxz6QZlsAIo

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkQ54GIDTbc

    Subtle, eh?

    Or Chopin using a short phrase from his song A Maiden's Wish in the C# minor nocturne op. 20.
    Last edited by Mat; May-06-2014 at 15:55.
    Music expresses that which cannot be put into words and that which cannot remain silent.
    -- Victor Hugo


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    Chief assistant to the assistant chief JHC's Avatar
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    Yes the Chopin/Brahms is very subtle Mat and Kempff is a master I was listening to him accompanying Menuhin in the "Spring " and "Kreutzer" Sonatas last night. btw where have you been I thought maybe Vlad had you in his sights
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  9. #7
    Vice Admiral Virtuoso Mat's Avatar
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    How about some not so sublte Tchaikovsky then?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...gYlcNxE8#t=326

    And of course Dvorak quoting himself (gotta love the tematic unification)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShmwB...ailpage#t=2705

    Quote Originally Posted by JHC View Post
    btw where have you been I thought maybe Vlad had you in his sights :grin:
    Methinks Vladdy has been occupying... oops! I meant occupied with someone else :p
    Music expresses that which cannot be put into words and that which cannot remain silent.
    -- Victor Hugo


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    Chief assistant to the assistant chief JHC's Avatar
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    Was Tchaikovsky referring to the Marseillaise? I did not pick that up in the 9th??
    I am getting fed up with all the adds on YT yes they are short but annoying.
    I believe Vlad is in the richest men list ????????
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  11. #9
    Vice Admiral Virtuoso Mat's Avatar
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    Colin, with Dvorak I meant that he quoted the opening theme from the 2nd mvmt in the 4th mvmt of his symphony. As for youtube, I use Firefox + Adblock Plus - I've not seen a single ad in ages. I'm not using Internet Explorer ever again.
    Music expresses that which cannot be put into words and that which cannot remain silent.
    -- Victor Hugo


  12. #10
    Vice Admiral Virtuoso Dorsetmike's Avatar
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    I use Firefox + Adblock Plus - I've not seen a single ad in ages.
    Ditto, except for a couple of forums which are ad supported and which Adblock doesn't or can't touch worst case was on a Photo forum which has Ebay camera and associated ads across the top of the page, when I tried using adblock on those it screwed up images on Ebay as well.
    Cheers MIKE.

    How many roads must a man walk down ... ... before he admits he's lost?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mat View Post
    Colin, with Dvorak I meant that he quoted the opening theme from the 2nd mvmt in the 4th mvmt of his symphony. As for youtube, I use Firefox + Adblock Plus - I've not seen a single ad in ages. I'm not using Internet Explorer ever again.
    Aha I will listen again. I am using Firefox but still get these adds at the start of most clips some you can delete in 5 sec others you have sit through.
    I have just thought of another quote that of Mendelssohn's Mid summer nights dream in one of his other works (I will have to recheck and post) I actually used it in one of my music evenings and amazed the others with my formidable knowledge.
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  14. #12
    Vice Admiral Virtuoso Mat's Avatar
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    In his Academic Overture, Brahms used a theme from Gaudeamus igitur - a popular commercium song:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...qkZY6TLU#t=506

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pOitHlghW0

    Arvo Pärt used a theme by J.S. Bach:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cH8oLn5Avp8

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHQkXI8c7vU

    Oh, and Colin - I sent you a PM on Adblock.
    Music expresses that which cannot be put into words and that which cannot remain silent.
    -- Victor Hugo


  15. #13
    Chief assistant to the assistant chief JHC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mat View Post
    In his Academic Overture, Brahms used a theme from Gaudeamus igitur - a popular commercium song:
    aka The working class can kiss my A*** I've got the gaffers job at last.




    Re my post on Mendelssohn:

    I had to do some searching and eventually the cogs fell into place Mendelssohn composed the sextet when he was sixteen 1825 and the start of either the 3rd or 4th movement contains a melodic theme which is developed to perfection when he composes the Overture to Midsummer Nights Dream 1826. I was going to post an example from my CDs but have misplaced the Octet I did a search on YT but found no decent comparisons, I am working on it as I think I have the Octet on my mp3 player, now as soon as I can find my mp3 player Iwill be in business.


    Oh, and Colin - I sent you a PM on Adblock.
    Mat thanks for the link I will get onto it this afternoon. (If I can remember)
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    Beethoven’s Choral Fantasy Op 80.
    Not a quote as such but you can easily hear it as the original idea for the
    Ode to Joy of the 9th sym
    The Pianist is Helene Grimaud with the Swedish Radio Sym Orch and Choir.
    Rec 2003 on DG I love this pianist.


    Adagio 3:36 https://app.box.com/s/cjesjfzqgnig4x130qlu


    Finale- Allegro 15:27 https://app.box.com/s/m3z83o5au0anbvbyf7cu
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