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What defines a good improvisation?

Nikam

New member
pcnd - I have to ask - how on earth do you remember your improvisation in such detail? Do you plan your 'route' beforehand, or ..... ?
 

pcnd5584

New member
pcnd - I have to ask - how on earth do you remember your improvisation in such detail? Do you plan your 'route' beforehand, or ..... ?

I thought about the overall shape of the improvisation whist the choir were singing Naylor's Final Responses. However, as I wrote in an earlier post, the fingers (and feet) must be led by the thought process - not the other way around. Fortunately I have a good memory for what I did - and, interestingly enough, for the stop-lists of even quite large instruments which I have played - right down to the piston settings for the main channel. (However, I occasionally forget why I have gone into a particular room in my house and I would not wish to play major repertory from memory.)


For the record, Sir George Thalben-Ball, doyen of English organists, had an excellent memory. Paul Murray tells of the occasion when GTB provided Dupré with a purposely diatonic improvisation theme. 'He played a very nice four-part fugue, and did a reasonably good toccata, but there were none of the brilliant fireworks one usually associates with Durpé, because there were no chromatics or rapid passagework.' The next day Murray discussed this with Thalben-Ball, and 'GTB played a good deal of what Dupré had done the night before.' *

Incidentally, please do not think for one second that I would presume to place myself in this category of player. If I had a quarter of the talent which either Dupré or Thalben-Ball had (to say nothing of Pierre Cochereau), I would be the happiest organist alive. (Thai is, aside, of course, from Frédéric Blanc, Michel Bouvard, David Briggs, MIchel Chapuis, Olivier Latry, Philippe Léfèbvre, Jos van der Kooy, Markus Willinger, Neil Page, Nigel Allcoat....)

But, no - in answer to your unspoken question - I did not sacrifice a yak beforehand, or draw weird per-medieval symbols around me on the floor, in chalk....



* p. 129; George Thalben-Ball (a biography), by Jonathan Rennert. David & Charles, Newton Abbot, Londodn, North Pomfret (Vt.): (1979).
 
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JHC

Chief assistant to the assistant chief
Well I take my hat off to you 5584 more like composing on the hoof.
 

Soubasse

New member
When you as an organist are asked to fill in a spare 5 min or so do you actually work around an existing piece or do you start off on an unknown journey?

That can depend on the occasion (well it will for me at any rate). In a liturgical situation, if I've just finished playing a hymn, then it can make a little more sense to extemporise on the hymn tune. Whereas, at another point, it's more sensible to create a free improvisation. Example, I used to play for University graduation ceremonies, and I was very conscious of making pre-ceremony improvs sound as far from anything liturgical as possible (minimalist techniques often came into play there, along with chord progressions and even references to contemporary songs (mind you, I do that in churches too, only with an appropriately Baroque embellishment so no-one notices ... sometimes ;) )
 

JHC

Chief assistant to the assistant chief
I wonder if it would make any difference if you did the same on a piano would it be easier?
 

Soubasse

New member
Speaking personally, I always improvise very differently on piano, but I find it trickier to be honest! I've been an organist for about 30 years so I'm much more at home on that instrument. When I improvise on piano, I'm always wanting to play things with my feet :)
 

pcnd5584

New member
Well I take my hat off to you 5584 more like composing on the hoof.


Which is exactly what improvising is supposed to be.

As Pierre Cochereau said - it is the illusionist's art. One neither has pencil nor an eraser. One cannot undo what has been done. Or, if you prefer, one cannot 'un-hear' what has already been played.
 

Thierry60

New member
Interesting to see the various comments on French improvisors....
In the late generation I would quote: Dupré, Messiaen (he played quite often in La Trinité in Widor's style), Guillou and the greatest (IMHO): Cochereau.
In the present generation: Pincemaille, Escaich, Blanc. As for me I would'nt even quote Latry (boring and repetitive playing), Lefevbre (out of date).
In the new generation: Baptiste-Florian Marle-Ouvrard, Samuel Liégeon.
Of course it's debatable, but I have been listening live all of them!!
 

pcnd5584

New member
This is interesting, Thierry - I would agree entirely with your choices* (and reasoning) - except for the new generation, since I have yet to hear them. And Messiaen. This is extremely intriguing. Do you know if there are any recordings of him improvising, particularly in the style of Widor, please? This is perhaps the last genre I would have expected, given the harmonic language of his printed works.

How I could have omitted Pierre Pincemaille from my list is beyond me - the man is a sublime genius. To watch him improvise on the box set of DVDs featuring Cavaillé-Coll instruments (produced by Fugue State Films) is both inspiring and stunning - not least because he had the most intractable instrument on which to pefrorm, yet he handled it with deftness and without fuss.
In the process, by my reckoning, he also produced by far the best improvisations.

* I named Latry and Léfèbvre due to the fact that, were I Titulaire at Nôtre-Dame, I would be extremely happy. Although I would be happier still if someone were also to invent a time machine and connect it to the great organ there, and put the whole thing back to the way it was in about 1977....
 
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John Watt

Member
This was a tense thread, until it softened up a little.
musicteach! You did get bounced, but that's okay, I like pom-pom action myself.
As far as I know, Beethoven, or his generation, were the last conductors to improvise piano solos onstage,
for symphonies.
People tell me they can see how my mind works when I'm playing, a nice compliment.
The best improvistations occur when a chord framework is being played through, as a band,
and it grows as an expression every time you go through it.

The as-yet-untitled Frederik Magle sent me a nice message about improvising,
after I asked about it, surprised to see him say some organ parts come at you after you set them up,
not an immediate thing.
The way he described his playing made this sound very attractive, almost like a reward,
even if you're still working to progress the music.
Please be forewarned: While I'm still working on my guitar, and two song parts, for a first video here,
now I want to begin, in all respect, with a piano improvisation.
I might be able to do that tomorrow.

JHC! I agree with you. Keyboardists can improvise on an orchestral level, having bass, chords and single notes all at once.
Instruments of single notes need a song framework, or in key rhythm, to work around.
Except musicteach. He has musicians marching around in formation to create his sound. Outside. In the hot sun.
Running in from rain. Parading down hot city streets. Maybe tossing wooden rifles and flags through the air.
No. I'm not making this up.
 

pcnd5584

New member
This was a tense thread, until it softened up a little.
...
No. I'm not making this up.

Your post is probably more appropriate on a board which deals with improvisation on guitars and pianos - and perhaps in a jazz style. This thread is discussing specifically improvisation as it relates to the pipe organ - both in concert and during services. Certainly to state 'The best improvisations occur when a chord framework is being played through, as a band...' is irrelevant to this thread. Perhaps we could put the jazz or band angle to rest. This was introduced as a result of erroneous information posted by musicteach.
 

John Watt

Member
pcnd5584! Thank you for explaining. That really was all I can say about organ improvisation.
I no longer own an organ, what was a nice deal in a former residence.
And if I can clarify, typing band is right up there with symphonies for me.
When I'm talking about sound, it's the variety and amount coming at me that defines musician's actions.
I wish all music was spontaneous, however spontaneous it can be. It is for me.

I don't see musicteach as posting erroneous information,
just like the barometer can affect tuning, different all over the world.
It's where you're coming from that defines you.
And musicteach knows how to, uh, inspire or motivate students. He did that to me.
 

pcnd5584

New member
pcnd5584!

...I don't see musicteach as posting erroneous information...
.

As already mentioned, the erroneous information was to state that improvisation began with jazz and blues. My post #3 (on 16 May) dealt with this.
 
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John Watt

Member
Quibbling, not as nice as nibbling,
but I can see the actual word improvisation as being popularized by the jazz and blues generations,
where musicteach was probably coming from. Maybe he had too much mustard in his sandwich.
The comedy generation grabbed that and called it improv.
The day I can't tell the difference, standing outside, between real musicians and recordings,
is when I get on my bike and ride away, never to come back.
There are some human interactions that can only be spontaneous for me.

But, I am coming from North America,
and as Mahatma Ghandi said, "American civilization, what a concept".
 

pcnd5584

New member
Quibbling, not as nice as nibbling,
but I can see the actual word improvisation as being popularized by the jazz and blues generations,
where musicteach was probably coming from. Maybe he had too much mustard in his sandwich.
The comedy generation grabbed that and called it improv.
The day I can't tell the difference, standing outside, between real musicians and recordings,
is when I get on my bike and ride away, never to come back.
There are some human interactions that can only be spontaneous for me.

But, I am coming from North America,
and as Mahatma Ghandi said, "American civilization, what a concept".

To be honest, it sounds as if you have been ingesting a controlled substance.
 
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John Watt

Member
Such are my entertainment and infotainment influences, here in the Niagara Peninsula, er, Northern New York.
I wish what I just ate was a substance controlled by me. All the bad chemicals wouldn't be there.
As being of only Scottish descent, my love of the world and the whirled, around us, also defines what I say,
what can sound strange to non-global thinkers.

I'm going to improvise right now and decide to go to the library, just down the street,
and look for movies. You can take a maximum of six.
I just decided this is going to be an indoor weekend.
I'll be looking when I get back to see if you're still here.
 
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pcnd5584

New member
...I'm going to improvise right now and decide to go to the library, just down the street,
and look for movies. You can take a maximum of six.
I just decided this is going to be an indoor weekend.
I'll be looking when I get back to see if you're still here.

Probably not - it's late here....
 
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John Watt

Member
And I just got back over twenty-four hours later,
and I didn't get to see the big water at Niagara Falls.
If you thought I was spun before,
what would you think if I told you I like river-walking above Niagara Falls,
getting almost two hundred feet out along the edge before a gap would force me to step over,
and I'm out there after two when no-one is around.
The water is less than a foot deep, half-way up to my knees,
the riverbed is rough, easy for feet to grip, and you could sit down and stand back up.
And that's before the new hydro diversion, me not being out there this year yet.
The water level is less than one sixth of what it used to be,
when it was the mighty Niagara Falls, not a field of moving water.
 

John Watt

Member
pcnd5584! Our bit of a musical headbutt did prompt me to go out of my way,
and record an improvisation. I know, I know, it's not a pipe organ, but it is a piano.
All I know is C minor on piano.
I should have warmed up, and I see myself loosening up around the three minute mark.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wk34FXiSx5g

Ooo! Does this mean it's your turn?
 
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