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Thread: Registration of "A us Tiefer Not"

  1. #1
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    Registration of "A us Tiefer Not"

    Hi.
    I am trying to replicate Lionel Rogg's registration of Aus Tiefer Not (Grande Version) on his Arlesheim Silbermann recording.
    I have an imitation of the Arlesheim organ using samples from another Silbermann organ. I cannot get the high pedal line out clearly. Does anyone know what registration Mr. Rogg used?
    Thanks,
    Mick Berg.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mick Berg View Post
    Hi.
    I am trying to replicate Lionel Rogg's registration of Aus Tiefer Not (Grande Version) on his Arlesheim Silbermann recording.
    I have an imitation of the Arlesheim organ using samples from another Silbermann organ. I cannot get the high pedal line out clearly. Does anyone know what registration Mr. Rogg used?
    Thanks,
    Mick Berg.
    Hi Mick,

    I am not sure if this helps but I have this track (played on the Silbermann Arlesheim) on an ancient Harmonia Mundi LP with cover notes that read "The full, six-part writing (two of the parts being given to the pedals) gives a splendid sonority to this larger setting of the penitential hymn. The treatment is basically the same as the smaller setting on the end of side one except that here it is the upper pedal part that has the final and main statement of each line of the melody. In this performance the upper pedal part is highlighted by a different tone colour from the lower part. This would at first seem impossible for one player to accomplish. It can be done, however, by the left hand's taking over the upper pedal part, and, through some incredibly virtuosic "thumbing down", playing it on a lower manual (the left hand playing on two manuals at once)."

    Diode

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    Hello Diode.
    That is interesting. I wonder which is more difficult, two pedal lines or the thumbing down!
    I was thinking it would be achieved by coupling a split manual reed to the pedal,and only using the upper half.
    But that is not possible on the Arlesheim organ, and not even on another Silbermann I know of with a split trumpet rank on the Recit, because the Recit can't couple to the pedal.
    The mystery continues!
    Thanks,
    Mick.

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    Captain of Water Music pcnd5584's Avatar
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    I realise that this is not quite the answer to your question. However, one of the most satisfying performances of this piece which I know, is that by Philippe Léfèbvre at Nôtre-Dame de Paris, a few years before the 1990-92 rebuild of the organ. He simply chooses to use the assistance of a second player, who plays the chorale melody in octaves on the chamades, against the pleno. I have never been satisfied with a 'one performer' version. Either the upper pedal melody is indistinct or, if a reed is used, this also sounds in the bass, which is again unsatisfactory. Even with a pedal divide facility (such as the one on the instrument in Nôtre-Dame de Paris), it would not work, since it would be necessary to alter the split point on occasion, whilst playing.

    When I play this piece, I always ask my colleague to play the melody in octaves, on our own chamade (and Positive Organ chorus, up to Cymbale 29-33-36), against the full G.O. and Swell choruses , with both octave couplers on the Swell.

    Yes, I know that in theory this breaks all the rules, and should sound overbalanced and hideous, but it actually sounds majestic and stirring. By a lucky quirk of some supremely good voicing and original design of the instrument (in 1965), this apparently odd combination works extremely well.

    God alone knows what Bach would think of it, though.
    Last edited by pcnd5584; Feb-28-2015 at 16:05.
    Pierre Cochereau rocked, man.

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    Hi.
    Indeed that's not what I wanted to hear! I'm surprised that Bach wrote organ music that required two players and didn't indicate it in the score.
    Does anyone know if it would be possible to ask Mr. Rogg himself how he did it?
    BTW I am not a good organist and can't get through a hymn without messing up so this inquiry is purely academic. Regarding your huge registration, Ithink Bach would have loved it!. My organ (Grand Orgue with a Silbermann sample set) has a Melody coupler available on any manual. Perhaps that would work, but I don't think it would be authentic for Bach!
    Thanks for your replies.
    Mick.
    Last edited by Mick Berg; Mar-01-2015 at 03:25. Reason: addition

  6. #6
    Captain of Water Music pcnd5584's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mick Berg View Post
    Hi.
    Indeed that's not what I wanted to hear! I'm surprised that Bach wrote organ music that required two players and didn't indicate it in the score.
    Does anyone know if it would be possible to ask Mr. Rogg himself how he did it?
    BTW I am not a good organist and can't get through a hymn without messing up so this inquiry is purely academic. Regarding your huge registration, Ithink Bach would have loved it!. My organ (Grand Orgue with a Silbermann sample set) has a Melody coupler available on any manual. Perhaps that would work, but I don't think it would be authentic for Bach!
    Thanks for your replies.
    Mick.
    Indeed - strictly speaking, it does not require two players - it is simply that I have never been convinced by a one-man rendering of this piece. I think that you may be right about Bach liking my registration; at least, I like to think so.

    I may play the piece (with a colleague supplying the third hand) during Lent this year. If I can find some vaguely decent sound recording gear, I shall try to post the result.



    Last edited by pcnd5584; Mar-03-2015 at 19:37.
    Pierre Cochereau rocked, man.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pcnd5584 View Post
    Indeed - strictly speaking, it does not require two players - it is simply that I have never been convinced by a one-man rendering of this piece. I think that you may be right about Bach liking my registration; at least, I like to think so.

    I may play the piece (with a colleague supplying the third hand) during Lent this year. If I can find some vaguely decent sound recording gear, I shall try to post the result.



    Hi.
    I'll be interested to hear that, especially measure 16, which in Mr. Rogg's recording, doesn't sound to me like what is written!

    I tried the melody coupler idea and it worked quite well. I coupled the Swell Trumpet to the pedal. It brings out the high pedal line very clearly, and where there is no high pedal line, it gives power to the low pedal line. However, how many organs have a melody coupler available on the pedal? Maybe mine is the only one in existence!!
    Cheers,
    Mick Berg.

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    Captain of Water Music pcnd5584's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mick Berg View Post
    Hi.
    I'll be interested to hear that, especially measure 16, which in Mr. Rogg's recording, doesn't sound to me like what is written!

    I tried the melody coupler idea and it worked quite well. I coupled the Swell Trumpet to the pedal. It brings out the high pedal line very clearly, and where there is no high pedal line, it gives power to the low pedal line. However, how many organs have a melody coupler available on the pedal? Maybe mine is the only one in existence!!
    Cheers,
    Mick Berg.
    I shall endeavour to do this. However, it depends on finding some decent recording equipment (and someone competent in its use). I have no intention of recording it on my phone - sound clips captured thus always sound dire.

    Your point about the melody coupler: this may indeed be quite rare. There are a few organs here in the UK which possess a 'Pedal Divide' facility, but, as I stated previously, it would still be difficult to play, since the point of division would need to be altered at certain points, in order to prevent the solo registration affecting the bass line of the Pedal part. The organ of Saint George's Hall, Liverpool has a coupler (unique in the UK*) 'Solo Tenor Solo to Pedal, which would probably fulfill a similar function to your 'Melody' coupler - except that, again, one would need the services of a registrant, in order to cancel this stop at the points where there is no upper pedal part.

    Stop-list for the Saint George's Hall instrument;

    http://npor.emma.cam.ac.uk/NPORView.html?RI=N01921




    * The organ in the Alexandra Palace (again by Willis) also possesses this feature, according to the stop-list. However, since this instrument has suffered greatly, even as far back as the First World War, and even now is only around half the size of the original instrument, I have no idea whether or not this device functions on the four Solo reed ranks which are present in the instrument.
    Last edited by pcnd5584; Mar-14-2015 at 22:49.
    Pierre Cochereau rocked, man.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pcnd5584 View Post
    I shall endeavour to do this. However, it depends on finding some decent recording equipment (and someone competent in its use). I have no intention of recording it on my phone - sound clips captured thus always sound dire.

    Your point about the melody coupler: this may indeed be quite rare. There are a few organs here in the UK which possess a 'Pedal Divide' facility, but, as I stated previously, it would still be difficult to play, since the point of division would need to be altered at certain points, in order to prevent the solo registration affecting the bass line of the Pedal part. The organ of Saint George's Hall, Liverpool has a coupler (unique in the UK*) 'Solo Tenor Solo to Pedal, which would probably fulfill a similar function to your 'Melody' coupler - except that, again, one would need the services of a registrant, in order to cancel this stop at the points where there is no upper pedal part.

    Stop-list for the Saint George's Hall instrument;

    http://npor.emma.cam.ac.uk/NPORView.html?RI=N01921




    * The organ in the Alexandra Palace (again by Willis) also possesses this feature, according to the stop-list. However, since this instrument has suffered greatly, even as far back as the First World War, and even now is only around half the size of the original instrument, I have no idea whether or not this device functions on the four Solo reed ranks which are present in the instrument.
    Interesting that you mention this instrument. I grew up a stones throw away from it and am very familiar with its checkered history. Its a miracle that it (and the Palace) still survive. As a young boy I tried several times to get inside it out of curiosity, thank goodness I never succeeded!
    Of course, since my organ is computer based, its no big deal that it has a melody coupler on the pedal. I could create any strange function imaginable.
    Thanks for the info. I think we should assume that Mr. Rogg used an assistant, as you suggest.

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