Maybe this thread has outlived its usefulness - Time to lock it up. I have benefitted greatly by reading the responses but am confounded by the *rawness* of some of the rhetoric such as *an ass - blatantly dull - half-witted* - those kinds of character assassinations go beyond the pale.
Hi there Corno Dolce,
I'm sure readers of this thread are all glad to have exchanged views here on this issue, even if they don't agree. But a wrong statement was made by another poster that no reference is to be found anywhere in the entire New Testament against homosexual unions. (An earlier reference of Christ to Sodom was produced but he dismissed it). So I'll end my contribution with another passage, this time from the New Testament Book of Romans. Written by the apostle Paul -
In the 1st chapter of the book of Romans we find -
''Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them'.
//
How much clearer can the moral illegality of homosexual unions be stated ? The spirit of the law (which is of course the main feature of the entire New Testament) has allowed toleration in our times as each and every homosexual must surely know already. But the law itself remains clear and each and every homosexual cannot deny that is what it says. Homosexuality is wrong. Plain and simple. The notion of homosexual marriage and even of bringing up childen within such a context is contrary, not only to the severity of the Old Testament but to the spirit of the New Testament also. Children deserve better than to allow such unions, especially where children are involved.
Similar texts from the New Testament exist. But surely the point has already been made.
Many thanks
Robert
Last edited by Robert Newman; Dec-23-2008 at 14:08.
It is a shame that people like this ruin good online forums. Have fun folks... I'm going to find another forum - hopefully where people are more tolerant of others and approach things with an intelligent mind, as opposed to spewing dribble and recycled talking points.
You won't find a better forum jawoodruff. The 'tolerance' you seek you already have. Time for you to realise this fact rather than to mislead us and yourself on the lessons of history. Time for you yourself to learn tolerance. You simply can't ignore these things or deny their existence.
It's called 'discussion'. It's how fair and reasonably minded people behave.
You asked for evidence. Now you've got it. But don't throw away your toys in anger. Simply grow up and accept it.
Last edited by Robert Newman; Dec-23-2008 at 14:09.
I hope you will forgive the intrusion, but Stephen (Greatcyber) told me about this thread and after reading it, I want to share some of my thoughts on the subject. The thread began as a sarcastic view of why gay marriage is anti-American. It quickly degraded into a moratorium on the role of the Bible, as the arbitrator of all that is good and holy, and then things got nasty. I am not here to debate religion, nor to dismiss or disrespect the views of others. However, based on some of your responses, you need to answer the following.
What exactly, did I do, as a man who happens to be gay, that is so wrong, that it justifies you restricting my rights as an American citizen, rights granted by the very founding documents of this country?
I cannot tell some of you, how disgusted I am by your views of humanity in general, and me, personally. Some of the responses could easily substitute the words, chattel or property, when discussing the basic rights that non-straights are entitled to, yet denied by a minor majority. There is a reason for the separation of church and state in America, because the rules for society, must be just and equal for all and separate but equal, denies the very foundations of this country.
What saddens me is that you choose to define gays as something abhorrent and sinful, yet you know nothing about me, but you condemn me unconditionally. Since you enjoy the benefits of true equality under the law, you see no problem, in denying gays the same benefits and you will never convince me, that your religion is a basis for fair and honest government. A true test of a society is their treatment of the least amongst them. A just society demands that all are equal, in affairs that govern the societal operation of that country. I do not seek extra or special rights, just the same rights that you enjoy: Nothing more and nothing less.
When you can tell me, why gays specifically should be denied equal rights, under American law, then we can talk. Until you remove religion from the discussion, you will never have a logical basis from which to govern. Nobody is asking for any religion to sanctify anything involving their religion, we are just seeking the same rights as everyone else in regards to civil law. How depressing to think, that gays ability to have equal rights, is more important than the true suffering that exists in the world. What a painful reminder of just how closed some peoples’ minds can be. What a frightening look into some of your souls, very frightening indeed.
I now return you, to your regular thread.
Hi there Killfoile,Originally Posted by killfoile
I read your post here with much interest. Your post wasn't directed to anyone specifically but its contents were so interesting I felt they deserved a detailed reply. Please accept this as my own considered views. If they have merits it's because they are based on solid ground. At least, I hope you will agree.
Perhaps I can begin with your question -
What exactly, did I do, as a man who happens to be gay, that is so wrong, that it justifies you restricting my rights as an American citizen, rights granted by the very founding documents of this country?
In reply, the rights to which you are refering - are these the product of you being an American, or are they valid for all men in all countries ? Reading from what you have written it seems you view the rights in question as flowing from the US Constitution. But am I right ?
Your right to be a homosexual is not really in question as far as I myself am concerned. Honestly, I wish you were not homosexual. That is, I wish you were hetrosexual. But I speak as a Christian and as a person who recognises the rights of everyone. (I believe passionately in the liberty of conscience and am a great admirer of the US Constitution).
Perhaps you can share whether your homosexuality is of your own choice ? Since life itself is choice, is it not ? Do you agree there are countless men and women who abstain from sexuality. Both hetrosexuals and also homosexuals. Don't you agree ?
But let me come to the issue of rights themselves. The rights to which you are refering. These are your own, personal, individual rights, aren't they ? But from where does these come ? Do they come from the US Constitution, or from some other source ?
The reason I ask is rather simple. Let's take, for example, marriage. Do you believe all man and all women have a right to marry ? As a right ? But from where does such a right to marry come from ? Was it the US Constitution which made the right of my marriage or yours possible ? Did it (the US Constitution) give birth to the idea of marriage, the right of marriage ? Of course not. The US Constitution and governments all over the world recognised it officially (as it recognises so many other good things). But from where did that right and others come from before they were formally recognised ?
In short, the rights we recognise today under law, in writing, have to have come from somewhere. Only later were they were recognised, officially. So also with the right to be free from slavery, etc etc etc.
I would fight, tooth and nail, for you to have the right within society to be a homosexual though I personally believe homosexuality is wrong.
Correct me if I am wrong (I'm not an American). What is at issue here is state recognition of homosexual marriage and not so much homosexuality itself. It is not illegal anywhere in the USA to be a homosexual. But in some parts of the USA it is now illegal to enter in to a homosexual marriage. Isn't this the issue ? The one you feel now challenges your rights ?
Can I suggest (sincerely) the right to marriage does not come from the US Constitution. Or from anywhere else. It's really a divinely ordained institution. And therefore it can neither be established nor disestablished by anyone.
But I strongly disagree that banning homosexual marriage is removing your right to be a homosexual. It is legal recognition of the fact that same sex marriage is contrary to the institution of marriage itself, as a divinely created institution.
Amongst other things marriage symbolises (and was intended to symbolise) the relationship between God and man. As such, it was intended to be between a man and a woman.
Of course homosexuals deserve all rights and privileges of all citizens under the law. But origins of marriage are divine, simple and not at all complicated. A man cannot marry a man, nor a woman a woman, without making a mockery of marriage itself.
Such is my view. I strongly defend your right to choose your life and your style of life, though I can and do disagree with homosexuality (for reasons which I as a Christian have learned). My point of view is not shared by you. Fine. That's our freedom, to believe or not to believe. But I cannot agree that your rights are here or anywhere in this world being attacked, either in the USA or anywhere over homosexual marriage - an arrangement which (as said) is contrary to the very institution itself.
Yours respectfully
Robert
Robert, you miss my point entirely. In the US, every American is created equal and is entitled to the same rights, responsibilities and benefits, that society offer, except if you are anything other than heterosexual. This has nothing to do with religions, or your beliefs and that is why you can never govern based on beliefs alone. This also has nothing to do with the rest of the world, as the thread is based on America, so what the rest of the world does matters little, though where appropriate, it should be emulated. I am not asking for anything from a religion, just equal rights from my own government.
Imagine, if you can, a world where being straight is viewed as being abnormal. You must suspend your beliefs to have this discussion, and if you can imagine that, now imagine why you would choose to be part of a despised segment of society. You claim that you would not and I retort with, then why should I? You are so stuck in your dogma that you refuse to accept all humans as equal of basic human rights and the right to live your life to the fullest, is the greatest human right of all.
My argument does not center on gay marriage, it centers on equal rights for all citizens. So again my question remains. Why exactly do you think it is fair to deny me all the civil rights, that every straight American enjoys, just because I am gay? On second thought, do not even bother. The way you reference gays and our lifestyle, like it was a designer suit, is disgusting. I have a wonderful life and as a recovering Catholic, I know the damage that religious dogma can cause. It took me years to realize that any God, worthy of worship, does not make junk and that people who profess to know all, based on questionable sources, are one of the gravest dangers known to humanity.
You will never be able to see the real beauty around you, because you are far too busy looking for the ugly in life. I submit that you have found that which is ugly and it is your puritanical and self righteous views about what constitutes right and wrong. You, in my opinion, are a small minded person, who is about as charitable as a pit bull. You can look down your nose at me, all you like, because I do not care what you think and can only hope that others share my view.
I do not wish to create any further diversion and so I will respectfully leave this thread. Once again, sorry for the intrusion.
Last edited by killfoile; Dec-24-2008 at 02:22.
Thanks for your reply. I'm sorry you won't be discussing this issue any more here.
You say 'I am not asking anything from a religion, just equal rights from my own government'.
Aren't you a little confused ? The US Constitution (unlike most nations of history) deliberately separated matters of church and state. Didn't it ? And quite rightly. It (the state) can pass no law which enforces a religious viewpoint. So why blame the US government on an issue which, in actual fact, has nothing to do with the state ? Marriage. The state has granted you the right to be a homosexual. (Unlike countless other times and societies). You can even parade with others publicly, simply to 'celebrate your sexuality'. Many do. But have you noticed, there are no hetrosexual parades down the same city streets, are there ? There are no parades where the sexuality of hetrosexuals is celebrated, are there ? Why is this ? Thank goodness for it !!! And there's surely a reason for this - it's that responsible hetrosexuals (generally) do not have their sexuality as the single, dominating theme of their existence. Think about it !
I don't 'look down my nose' at you. You fail to appreciate that marriage involves the rights of more than one person. In some cases marriage has direct influence/impact on children. And, because this is true, because it goes beyond your right to be a homosexual, I am very much against the idea of 'homosexual marriage' despite respecting your individual rights (granted to you by the state) to be a homosexual.
I won't end in an insult. Thanks for the exchange. The wisest judge of these issues transcends politics. Marriage is of course a divine ordinance whose rules and principles are given to those of faith. As for the rest there is as we see nothing but confusion, counterfeit, loud voices, ugliness, perversion, unrest and turmoil.
Regards
Last edited by Robert Newman; Dec-24-2008 at 17:02.
I meant no insult by stating my opinion regarding your views of how I should be penalized simply because I am gay. You seem to think that my being gay is what defines me, but you would be wrong. The reason that my being gay is an issue, is because of heterosexuals like you, who believe that you should dictate what is permitted, according to your beliefs alone. It is painfully obvious that you are unwilling to separate the concepts of civil law versus religious dogma and so this discussion has become futile.
Robert, I am a human being, just like you and all I seek is to be seen, in regards to civil law, as equal with any other American. It really is that simple. I do not seek approval or acceptance, only tolerance. As an American citizen I should be equal in the rights and benefits that accrue to all citizens, yet I am not, simply because I am gay. Some day, America will finally accept all of its citizens, as being equal, but until I will continue to speak out, on a subject that is very dear to my heart.
In fact, the issue of denied rights, is the very reason that Stephen and I moved from the US, to my country of birth, Canada. At least here, we can live our life honestly and be respected as human beings, not because we represent some type of stereotype. I fear that you allow your beliefs to serve, as a shield, against any reproach or attempt to discuss this issue. There is nothing to be gained, by any further discussion, because you cannot even accept me, as your equal, so what chance do I have against your God? If your treatment of me, is how your God wants you to act, then so be it. But I will never accept that I am any less of a human being, simply because I also happen to be gay.
I apologize to Lotus80 for what has happened in this (your) thread. The intention was purely humorous.
I apologize to any of our members who have been hurt by some of the posts in this thread.
Enough is enough. This thread is now closed.
''Music, I feel, should be emotional first and intellectual second.'' - Maurice Ravel
''The greatest education in the world is watching the masters at work.'' - Michael Jackson
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