simultaneous use of pedalboard and swell pedal

[hoofdwerk]

Hi, I'm new to P.O.Forum. and this is the first of many questions. I own a Viscount Jubilaeum 32. 24 stops, two manuals 32 radial pedal board one swell pedal. I have been playing the organ for about 18 months, and am absolutely besotted with the instrument! I do have a teacher, but I don't want to keep 'pestering' him with questions over the 'phone hence my joining P.O.Forum.Most of my current rep is baroque, but I also love french organ music. The instrument I have is obviously deficient in stops and manuals with regards to playing 19th./20th.C. music none the less, undeterred I have recently been exploring/working on a sumptuous little piece by Langlais 'Prelude Modal' The problem I'd like solutions to (and also applicable to similar repertoire), is this. If I must have one foot on the swell pedal for the numerous 'hair pins' how do I play legato pedal with one foot? My teacher told me that often the organist would have an 'assistante' to operate the swell box! Failing this, am I really supposed to squirm one footed around the pedalboard?Can I, or should I be using a minimally detatched articulation shortening the pedal note lengths thus giving the one foot time to move from pedal to pedal? Hoping for answers - hoofdwerk

[giovannimusica]

It is never good to be operating the swell pedal (in your case volume pedal) as if it were a bellows. Doesn't your instrument come with combination pistons? Furthermore, you are to play the pedalboard with both feet. If you have an organ coach, don't feel like your pestering him/her especially if you are paying him/her to help you in learning to handle the instrument. Hope this helps.

Cheers,

Giovanni

[Aristide]

You will rarely need to have a foot on the swell pedal (we call it "expression" in French) continuously. However there will be places in the piece where you need to use expression while playing the pedal as well. At such instances, you will need to play a series of pedal notes with your *left* foot. A composer like Jean Langlais - who was an organist himself - knew how to make this technically possible within his work.
Mastering tip/heel technique at least to some degree will help tremendously in this area, all while keeping Légato Absolu where needed.
Using combination pistons instead of the swell is not the same thing. Where Langlais indicated expression, it is mostly to be seen as expression and not as adding stops. However that will depend on the piece.
In executing romantic and symphonic organ music, the technique of using swell combined with pedal play needs to be acquired at some point during ones study. Do keep in mind though that you won't be able to keep your right foot on the swell at all times. This is by no means the purpose. It will be a matter of finding the right spots where you can manipulate the swell and then quickly back to the pedal board.
Plenty of pedal exercises are to be recommended also.

[hoofdwerk]

Thankyou Aristide and Giovanni for your replies. It was interesting to note an indication of different approaches between you. However I found the advice reassuring, since my own inclination( infact what I albeit clumsily tried to do) was to follow the left footed 'toe heel' approach, Finding it so difficult as I presently do I just needed to be persuaded that that is the route I have to take. More questions to follow when I have some more thinking time - probably to do with baroque pedal boards and baroque pedal technique, and at which point do you decide with J.S.B. to ( of necessity?) 'go for' toes and heels etc.

[giovannimusica]

You might like to keep in mind that Widor, Franck and Vierne didn't have the luxury of combination pistons - they had what is called *ventils*. Your assignment - look up *ventils*.


Cheers,

Giovanni

[Serassi1836]

- a foot: pedals
- the other one: swell pedal
Or simply use stops in order to get the crescendo or the diminuendo!

[JONESEY]

The organ I play only has three combination pedals that work the Great manual only, so I'm in the same boat as hoofdwerk. I personally only use the swell pedal when I have to, and it normally is left on a latch.

When I do use it, I'm forced to do the pedal with my left foot and the swell pedal with my right.

I'd love to have combination pistons, think it would make sound changes so much smoother.

[JONESEY]

Just looked Ventils up - but I won't spoil it for you Hoofdwerk.

[Flute'n'Pedal]

Hi Jonesey,
Like you, I have a lot of trouble using the swell pedal and the pedalboard together, and it's ended up that I don't use the swell pedal much. My teacher said I should play some expressive music for manuals only and learn to use the swell pedal this way. I didn't pay much attention, since I like to play with pedals. Until today.
Today, I had to play for a funeral on an ancient instrument with just one manual and four stops. The sound was exquisite. And the swell box was tremendous, magnifying the sound by a factor of at least four. Plus, the shutters were right before my eyes so that I could watch them opening and shutting. For the first time, I got really interested in the swell pedal.
I think my teacher is right--that you learn the swell pedal best when you play manuals only. If you don't have access to an instrument like the one I just described, maybe you could, for just 15 minutes or so a day, "restrict" the organ you play on to manuals, a few favourite stops, and the swell pedal. Funeral music is ideal for this purpose.
Of course, eventually one has to learn how to play swell pedal and pedalboard together. And I can't say yet how that's going to be.

[methodistgirl]

I have used the swell pedal to keep my balance. Now I don't play the little
monster no more. I have an instrument I can handle. The guitar!
judy tooley

[jvhldb]

I also had a problem using the swell and the pedal board at the same time. My organ teacher insist that I play the Afrikaans version of the Lords Prayer starting with a single pipe in a closed swell box and one pipe on the pedals, going to a crescendo with all pipes blaring and the swel box open fully and then in the last three bars going back to a closed swell box and only three pipes. After two weeks I now know why my shoes have heels and how to alternate feet on the swell pedal while changing registration (the organ only have 3 preset pistons). Most of the time I manage to do all of it without falling of the bench.

Use of the crescendo pedal is totaly forbidden by my teacher, except as a foot rest while doing an interlude on the manuals only.

[Flute'n'Pedal]

Hi Johan,

That's interesting. Do you think you could tell us where we could find this Afrikaans Lord's Prayer?

LlL

[jvhldb]

Hi Johan,

That's interesting. Do you think you could tell us where we could find this Afrikaans Lord's Prayer?

LlL

Listed below are two files, the standard notation is as it is written in the Church's song book for accompanying, it is intended for use organs/pianos.

The second file is a transcription of the same song that I transcribed to the organ format so I had more space to write pedal marks and other notes. Most organists set the registration in the beginning and don't change it throughout, but my teacher insisted that I learn her way of playing it. I still don't have a the nack for quickly closing and opening the swell shutters after the breath marks to "soften" the registration changes in the first part. The closest I get to that is planting my heel on the C pedal while closing the shutters with the toe during the ending (where the two C pedals are played simultaniously).

[Flute'n'Pedal]

Thanks Johan. Don't know if I'll be able to play it as your teacher perscribes, but I'll try.

[jvhldb]

This isn't perfect, but this was my latest attempt (please remember I'm only a student).