Are films the new opera?

[protos]

Hi,

I love films: more than opera, more than listening to music on its own, more than theatre, more than television. I confess that I don't usually listen closely to the music per se, rather I prefer to soak up the experience as a whole. I have a question that perhaps someone can answer.

Was Tubular Bells ("The Exorcist") released by Mike Oldfield before or after The Exorcist itself was released as a film? Someone asked me recently why progressive rock became popular between 1973-1977, and then faded. I wondered if, perhaps, The Exorcist - which provoked such strong feelings at the time - was part of this equation. Then it occured to me that perhaps The Exorcist predated Tubular Bells, and Tubular Bells owed more to the film than the other way around.

Thanks in advance.

Rory Ridley-Duff

[Frederik Magle]

Tubular Bells was recorded in 1972-73 and released in May, 73. "The excorcist" was released in December 1973 and since Lalo Schifrin already had done a score for the film, but it was rejected, I do believe that Tubular Bells predates the production of the movie (at least the part of it where music was considered).

Anyhow, like you, I love wathcing (good) films. Absolutely love it! But I wouldn't go as far as saying that I love it more than listening to music on its own. Some of my greatest experiences has been from listening to music - but of course I may be a bit biased

[protos]

Tubular Bells was recorded in 1972-73 and released in May, 73. "The excorcist" was released in December 1973 and since Lalo Schifrin already had done a score for the film, but it was rejected, I do believe that Tubular Bells predates the production of the movie (at least the part of it where music was considered).

Anyhow, like you, I love wathcing (good) films. Absolutely love it! But I wouldn't go as far as saying that I love it more than listening to music on its own. Some of my greatest experiences has been from listening to music - but of course I may be a bit biased

That's interesting. It sounds like the album did indeed generate its own following. I had wondered to what extent the film promoted the popularity of the album, but based on this it sounds as if the album did it all on its own.

Know what you mean about the musical experience - shut your eyes and soak up that melody/harmony, let the shivers run down the spine. Not many films can do that, I must admit.

Best wishes
Rory

[BGMCFAR]

I have always enjoyed the operetta the combineing of opera and film Janet Mc Donald and Nelson Eddie were some of the best If you can find the old films they are wounderful to watch and listen to

[Sybarite]

I'm not sure that opera transfers well to the big screen, but for a melding of music and celluloid, then perhaps the film of Thomas Mann's novella Death in Venice, using the music of Mahler (particularly the adagietto from the Fifth Symphony) is at the top of the pile.

The use of music by Stanley Kubrick in 2001: A Space Odyssey is also exceptionally good – and very clever: Also Sprach Zarathustra was inspired by Nietzsche's work of the same name and Kubrick's use of it at the opening of the film, as we see the evolution of mankind, recalls also that philosopher's ideas of Übermensch – indeed, perhaps the computer, Hal, can be viewed as a sort of Übermensch.

I think that mainstream Hollywood film, however, rarely reaches the kind of emotional peaks that music, including opera, can produce. And classical music in particular also demands a certain intellectual engagement – and little mainstream, English-language film does that to the same extent, in my opinion.

Generally speaking (and yes, it is a generalisation), I think that, if you want real emotional power and mental exercise in film, then you need to look away from Hollywood and more to Europe (I have little knowledge of Asian or African film on which to comment). If you look at films such as Jean de Florette and Manon des sources or Oberst Redl or The Enigma of Kasper Hauser, then you'll find the emotional power and the intellectual rigour.

[rojo]

Jean de Florette and Manon des sources are indeed moving. The music from Verdi`s 'La Forza del Destino' sure helps; I can hear that clarinet solo in my head right now...

[Sybarite]

Jean de Florette and Manon des sources are indeed moving. The music from Verdi`s 'La Forza del Destino' sure helps; I can hear that clarinet solo in my head right now...

That haunting theme is used on some TV adverts for Stella Artois in the UK – quite distracting.

[Sybarite]

I appreciate that this is not quite the idea that protos was positing, but it's worth adding that a rare example of film and opera blending well is Mike Leigh's Topsy-Turvy, about the relationship of Gilbert and Sullivan and set against the specific backdrop of The Mikado.

[protos]

I appreciate that this is not quite the idea that protos was positing, but it's worth adding that a rare example of film and opera blending well is Mike Leigh's Topsy-Turvy, about the relationship of Gilbert and Sullivan and set against the specific backdrop of The Mikado.

Happy for this thread to go wherever people lead it. I guess my original post was to get an answer to a specific question, but also pose whether the most 'composite' artistic genre is now film, rather than opera. I think in centuries gone by, opera was the place where all artistic schools came together for the most intense theatrical experience. Perhaps later, musicals challenged on this front (certainly in the 'popular' arena). Is it now film? The second-level issue is the way films can embed music into a whole culture (or sub-culture). I was wondering about the impact of the 'The Exorcist' in embedding Tubular Bells into our culture, but the respones suggests that its influence was less than I originally thought.....

Rory

[Oneiros]

I'm not sure that opera transfers well to the big screen, but for a melding of music and celluloid, then perhaps the film of Thomas Mann's novella Death in Venice, using the music of Mahler (particularly the adagietto from the Fifth Symphony) is at the top of the pile.

The use of music by Stanley Kubrick in 2001: A Space Odyssey is also exceptionally good – and very clever: Also Sprach Zarathustra was inspired by Nietzsche's work of the same name and Kubrick's use of it at the opening of the film, as we see the evolution of mankind, recalls also that philosopher's ideas of Übermensch – indeed, perhaps the computer, Hal, can be viewed as a sort of Übermensch.

I think that mainstream Hollywood film, however, rarely reaches the kind of emotional peaks that music, including opera, can produce. And classical music in particular also demands a certain intellectual engagement – and little mainstream, English-language film does that to the same extent, in my opinion.

Generally speaking (and yes, it is a generalisation), I think that, if you want real emotional power and mental exercise in film, then you need to look away from Hollywood and more to Europe (I have little knowledge of Asian or African film on which to comment). If you look at films such as Jean de Florette and Manon des sources or Oberst Redl or The Enigma of Kasper Hauser, then you'll find the emotional power and the intellectual rigour.

I couldn't agree more. In terms of aesthetics Hollywood for the most part fails to aspire to anything lofty and profound. I haven't seen too many films that I would consider art on the same level as some music, but then my standards are fairly high. However, Kubrick's films are very good, and The Matrix trilogy was interesting - I even remember reading an essay titled 'The Matrix and Neo-Baroque Aesthetics' (or something to this effect), which drew parallels between the film and the Baroque style in oil painting.

Another interesting film was "Safe" - it was American but I don't think from Hollywood. What was so intriguing about this film was the way it suggested something deeper underlying the main character's aversion to chemicals and pollution - the eerie silences and blank looks, the comments made about self-hatred, those desolate and expansive landscapes... All these moments were handled very well.

As for films replacing Opera... I think it may take some time perhaps, until some brilliant film-makers (like Kubrick) merge music and film into something which can parallel the aesthetic of the Operas. Film is relatively new after all.

[protos]

These are interesting posts. With opera, we have to remember that we're getting the cream of the past. I suspect many less good operas are not performed any more. As for film, it takes time to sift through the mass of releases to find some good ones. There do seem to be some that hit the mark.