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Is organ building dead where you live?

Contratrombone64

Admiral of Fugues
Sadly, in the land of philistines, organs have not been commissioned in a long while. In fact, I can't think of the last organ to have been built in Sydney (where I live).

It would appear that the United States has a thriving organ industry ... but where else?

This is a sad scenario, especially with church governing bodies coming to the conclusion that purchasing Makin or Johannus style digital organs is more cost effective to the parish than maintaining an existing, leaky and expensive to maintain pipe organ.
 

Soubasse

New member
Sadly, in the land of philistines,

Looks as though I should have copyrighted that phrase :grin: ... Nah, you can use it - it is true after all.

I take your point too. To the best of my knowledge down here on the South coast, the last organ to have been built from scratch was a little 2-manual Pogson in a Uniting Church. Before that, it was a Knud Smenge instrument and since neither Smenge nor Pogson are "locals" here, the trade has well and truly dropped off. Whilst there are about four known organ builders down here, the best known of them was George Stephens (now retired) and he has only built one instrument here. They make what's left of their living from tuning, general maintenance and very occasionally restoration work but little else. If ever there is a sizeable commission from larger churches or corporate bodies, they'll always look overseas of course. However, having said that, they'll usually have done so on the recommendation of the local builders.

I find that it is as regretable as the lack of interest in the organ itself (certainly in this country), that these folk can't make a decent trade.
 

Contratrombone64

Admiral of Fugues
Was in church on the weekend and a visiting Bishop from South Australia gave a sermon on "not over doing it ..." most amusing as the chap probably weighs around 145 kgs if he's an ounce. Nice guy, though, Bishop of the upper part of S.A. ... can't remember his name (Anglican)
 

kierantk

New member
our school installed a new organ only about 2 years back in Sydney (st aloysius).. But then again, i think it was a second hand organ from somewhere in canada or something
 

Soubasse

New member
Was in church on the weekend and a visiting Bishop from South Australia gave a sermon on "not over doing it ..." most amusing as the chap probably weighs around 145 kgs if he's an ounce. Nice guy, though, Bishop of the upper part of S.A. ... can't remember his name (Anglican)
:grin: HAHA!! That'll be Garry Weatherall, Bishop of Willochra Diocese I think. He was one of my English teachers at school, then he was one of the priests at St Peter's Cathedral when I was the Organ Scholar there in the late 80s. At school he was nicknamed "Barrel" - he always reminded me of a cross between Bluto (from the Popeye cartoons) and Brian Blessed. An affable gent if ever there was one, and was very supportive of my playing when I was at the Cathedral.

keirantk, second-hand from Canada seems to be catching on. That's where we're getting our new instrument from ... apparently (no good asking the organists, we were told nothing about it :mad: )
 

Krummhorn

Administrator
Staff member
ADMINISTRATOR
Soubasse and CB64:

Are church organists there not consulted about 'new' instruments that are being installed in your churches? Are you not even on the organ committee?
 

Soubasse

New member
You have an Organ Committee?? You lucky sod!:) I have complained about this in a couple of other threads, but basically no - there is an unpleasant air of disrespect toward the organists with the present Cathedral administration. We have been languishing playing a damned toaster for too many years now. All talk of a new instrument was ignored by the previous administration who cared even less for us than the present one, but many of the present bods seem to have regarded that as normal behaviour. A decision was made recently to purchase a 2nd-hand Casavant from Montreal but we organists (there are 3 of us) knew absolutely nothing about it until after the purchase was made. A consultant from Melbourne was also called in without our knowledge. The Principal organist once said - and it's probably more truth than joke: "If I want to know anything about what's happening with an organ here, I'll read the notice sheets from any other city church."

I have been playing at this building for about 17 years and am still wondering how to even breach the subject. It's a rather appalling state of affairs which in turn seems to be impinging upon organ builders as well.

Matt
 

Contratrombone64

Admiral of Fugues
Matt

Sorry to be brutally honest here but "get over it". Most churches are like that as they are responsible for funding instruments, organists, like choir directors are people the church employee because they need to. Unless you're an ordained minister of the church AND an organist (like the chap in the Anglican Cathedral in Bathurst) then you'll find your role there is generally ignored.

I'm afraid I agree with the church on this one AND have complained that our church organist and choir master BOTH earn too much money as they both drive around in expensive cars (Mercedes) whereas the clergy get paid a pittance.

Frankly, as much as I love "bells and smells" and the wonderful music at my church, it's not the main reason I go there (go figure).
 

NEB

New member
Gotta agree with CT64. Musical activities (as far as almost all churches round here are concerned) tend to be window dressing, and there are a host of reasons (some more spiritual - others related to being seen to be... and so forth) as to why people go to church. I've yet to hear anyone say they go for the beautiful music (unless they are a singer/organist themselves, and then it's usually about seeing someone they know/know of, or cusiosity about how someone else does things...)

There's even a church quite local, where the organist plays minimal music before and after services and doesn't even bother accompanying hymns, just giving a chord on the piano for the congregation to find the first note. That church is packed every sunday...
 

Contratrombone64

Admiral of Fugues
Matt, I think, however you do raise a very valid point and I see your frustration at being left out of the loop on this.

Sometimes the problem with the clergy is that they "think" they know what is best when it comes to organ procurement and often they just don't.

I stopped going to the 10:30 Sunday service at Christ Church St. Laurence (which is full on bells and smells) because the music was just too distracting AND I'm an organist and singer. Unbelievably I attend the church for meditation and thoughtfullness (not necessarily in a Christian sense either).

So Matt, I hope I havn't upset you with my strong views, not my intention.
 

Soubasse

New member
Whilst there will always be differing opinions on things, there will also always be some things that grate. I can understand some points-of-view in terms of how any one church administration wishes to prioritise things, but for me, it is the basic issue of respect and consideration toward one's "employees."

Clearly, CT64, our situations are fairly polarised (note I said situations which does not necessarily mean our opinions :) ). In terms of income and what they drive around in, the priests here have a lot and the musicians have very little. I've also looked at "faith" from both sides now (an un-used line from the Joni Mitchell song:grin: ) and feel I have a reasonable amount of experience on how both sides can operate.

There was a meeting a while back with the choir, organists and the Principal administrator of the cathedral (who also celebrates most of the masses when the Archbishop doesn't). When the issue heated up a little with the more staunch members of the choir, the statement was made that a great deal of the cathedral patrons attend to hear the music. Our adminstrator then made the very bare-faced statement: "Yes, but they're WRONG!" (and that is verbatim - we all remember it a little too well).

Now, obviously as an agnostic, I'm the last person to speak on evangelical outreach, but the above statement does come across as rather arrogant. One would think that a canny priest could use this fact (ie, people attending to hear the music) to their advantage. Okay, so they don't agree with why the people attend, but hey, they're there. Why not take the time to explain to the people exactly what all that lovely music they're enjoying actually means? Explain the texts, how they came about, why it's written that way, etc, etc, etc. If they could work WITH their musicians and not ignore them, if they could bypass some of their academic, theological pride and regard the music as an integral part of the liturgy rather than "window-dressing", they could easily bring far more people into the flock. That may seem a simplistic point-of view but sometimes the simple things are best (I can't believe I said that ...:rolleyes: ) At the moment the numbers at the cathedral are well and truly down from what they have been in the past and it's for this reason. Of course most people attend because they believe, I know that (I used to be one of them) and I appreciate that. However, other people people attend for other reasons and this could be acted upon as well. Yes? No?

That is of course, this particular tiny corner of the globe and not how it is everywhere else obviously. And yes, while it may be easier for me to "get over it" which to a large extent I have (except when the issue rears its ugly head from time to time) it still doesn't alter the fact that for me, it boils to a lack of respect and common courtesy to us organists who are doing a service ('scuse the expression) to their cathedral which we know is valued by their congregation even though it is not valued by them.
 

Contratrombone64

Admiral of Fugues
And, as one of the congregation said to a moaning parishioner (she was moaning about the amount of control the clergy have in the church !!??) "put on your big girls' panties and deal with it". May me snort (with laughter, not illicit substances).
 

NEB

New member
Excellent points there too Soubasse. Yes - The whole high church/cathedral thing is a spectacle on grand scale as much as anything. A wonderful piece of theatre if you will. Carefully correagraphed, with an awesome list of music and lyric writers. and rehearsed and ever so slowly modified over centuries, being passed down from generation to generation - largely unchanging.

I agree about the issues of respect, but over the years I've deputised in an awful lot of churches, and it's from what I can see from talking with others, always the same. No dog collar - no voice etc. - Sad, but true.

And I also wonder if this doesn't stem from history. Inherit the estate, go into the Army (officer of course) or go into the priesthood. All positions with certain amounts of power, servants, people to command and so forth (and those suitable for a 'gentleman'). I'm sure that's all watered down, but if the other traditions of the church remain well in-tact, might not this beneath the surface too? No longer called servants, instead staff? - so what's in a name?
 
Vowles Tracker

Was in church on the weekend and a visiting Bishop from South Australia gave a sermon on "not over doing it ..." most amusing as the chap probably weighs around 145 kgs if he's an ounce. Nice guy, though, Bishop of the upper part of S.A. ... can't remember his name (Anglican)


That person you are talking about is Bishop Garry Weatherill not sure of the spelling and yes he is Bishop of the Mid North of South Australia. I do tend to agree with you Garry does enjoy his tucker!
 
:grin: HAHA!! That'll be Garry Weatherall, Bishop of Willochra Diocese I think. He was one of my English teachers at school, then he was one of the priests at St Peter's Cathedral when I was the Organ Scholar there in the late 80s. At school he was nicknamed "Barrel" - he always reminded me of a cross between Bluto (from the Popeye cartoons) and Brian Blessed. An affable gent if ever there was one, and was very supportive of my playing when I was at the Cathedral.


I think you and I sort of know each other your initials are M A? involved with the other Cathedral of the Roman Tradition? We also have a mutual friend that sings very well.
 

Arvin B

New member
Sadly, in the land of philistines, organs have not been commissioned in a long while. In fact, I can't think of the last organ to have been built in Sydney (where I live).

It would appear that the United States has a thriving organ industry ... but where else?

This is a sad scenario, especially with church governing bodies coming to the conclusion that purchasing Makin or Johannus style digital organs is more cost effective to the parish than maintaining an existing, leaky and expensive to maintain pipe organ.

I wanted to chime in with a report on Amercan organ building

Yes - it is going well. Although most of the big organ "factories" such as Mohler have gone out of business, smaller builders are thriving.
 

methodistgirl

New member
pipe organs

Have you ever tried England? This is another country where the pipe
organs are built. There should be churches in jolly old england where
they get new pipe organs.
judy tooley:rolleyes:
 

Arvin B

New member
English Builders

Have you ever tried England? This is another country where the pipe
organs are built. There should be churches in jolly old england where
they get new pipe organs.
judy tooley:rolleyes:


Do you know who the active English builders are?
 

Udyret

New member
Thanks for an exciting thread everyone.
If you wanna see an active organindustry visit Denmark. A lot is going on here, and more is to come. Because we currently have a good period financially, chances are your church may get a new organ if needed. The church where I am the organist for instance had a new organ installed back in April this year.
The problem, however, is the consulting. There is no official expert around (there used to be), so a lot of experts battle for the projects.
To the positive side your opinion matters if your church plans to get a new organ. I got to choose between two specifications (there were few differences between them) and follow the voicing of the organ and sound my opinion.
Currently there are 4 major organbuilders around: Marcussen, Frobenius, Andersen&Bruhn and Bruno Christensen. 3 minor organbuilders: Husted, Carsten Lund and Jensen&Thomsen (actually owned by frobenius, but building organs of their own profile), and several one-man-builders.
The situation sounds bad in Australia, and I find that sad. An electrical organ should not be installed in a church in my opinion, but as always (even in Denmark) the money is the X-factor.
There is one question i'd like to ask: Does your country have enough organists? Because that is the biggest problem in Denmark.
 

Krummhorn

Administrator
Staff member
ADMINISTRATOR
There is one question i'd like to ask: Does your country have enough organists? Because that is the biggest problem in Denmark.

Church Organists in the US are starting to become extinct - at least in the region where I live. Years ago there was a plethora of organists competing for church positions - in one such Southern California church I was competing against 10 other organists ... btw, I was awarded that position and served as Sr. Organist for 15 years. I've been the sole organist at my church since 1982 - there are no others waiting in the wings if and when I decide to have my organ shoes bronzed and hang them on the wall. I'm hoping the scenario will change here.

Being of Danish ancestry (I have a cousin that lives in Copenhagen) I would move there in a heartbeat if it were economically feasable. I'll have to settle for a visit instead, which I hope to do in the next couple years.
 
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