JS Bach's Toccata and Fugue in D Minor ("Dorian") BWV 538

[Argoth]

I wonder, how many on this board have/do play this work? I'm sure it's not one of the easier pieces. Anyway, it has slowly but surely become one of my favourite Bach works outside of the Klavierubung III.

Some of the recordings/videos I've seen have the work performed at some speed, but I lately came across a slightly slower execution than most, although the track doesn't have the details of who is playing it. I could be left alone to listen to it for a full day, and each time it will reveal something new. That's one of the times when I really regret not having started learning to read music from a young age, or I would now be playing the organ and practicing this piece until I could play it backwards and forwards by memory!

[Krummhorn]

Hi Argoth (and congrats on achieving Ensign )

Yes, this work is part of my library - I've played it many times, but never in public. I prefer to keep the tempo at the slower execution and quite mechanical. Wonderful piece that is not played enough in concerts.

[Corno Dolce]

Hello Argoth,

The *Dorian* toccata and fugue is a staple in my repertoire - I refuse to play it fast like Anthony Newman - Imho, one loses so much at his tempi. I guess that makes me a Romantic Sop Well, so be it. Doing your homework on the fingerings and pedaling you will find that it will *seep* into your hand and will stay there comfortably.

Cheers,

Corno Dolce

[methodistgirl]

I know what you are saying Argoth. Toccata & fugue is a tough one to
learn. It's been a real booger for me! It takes time to learn this piece.
I've been working on Toccata & fugue since I got the sheet music last
summer. I'm just begining to get used to even the first three pages.
If the piece get too frustrating take a break and play something else
you know by Bach and keep listening to other people play it as you
follow along with the sheet music. It helps for me.
judy tooley

[Krummhorn]

Judy,

The T&F we are chatting about here is BWV 538 (see attached). Although in D minor, this one is rather different. I think the one you are learning is BWV 565.

[Argoth]

I know what you are saying Argoth. Toccata & fugue is a tough one to
learn. It's been a real booger for me! It takes time to learn this piece.
I've been working on Toccata & fugue since I got the sheet music last
summer. I'm just begining to get used to even the first three pages.
If the piece get too frustrating take a break and play something else
you know by Bach and keep listening to other people play it as you
follow along with the sheet music. It helps for me.
judy tooley

Hi Judy, as Krummhorn says, the Toccata and Fugue I am referring to is a different one. Bach wrote many Toccata's and many Fugues, as did other composers. I think it is somewhat more difficult than its more popular namesake, but that's from what it sounds to me. And no, I cannot play this myself (probably I can play the parts for each hand (with plenty of mistakes) after a lot of listening, but I haven't tried). As I've said, I don't read music or play the organ myself. Anyway, here is a video for your reference of the Toccata. I think this is just an amateur having some fun since there are some little slipups, but I love his tempo; most versions I hear tend to race too much.

+ YouTube Video

Here's a video by a professional, but I personally think it is way too fast:

+ YouTube Video

[Krummhorn]

Hi Argoth,

Wonderful contrasting presentations of the same piece. I too prefer the more deliberate tempo of the first player. Comparing the times of the two videos, there is a minute, nineteen seconds difference. Indeed, the 2nd video is wayyy too fast for my taste.

[methodistgirl]

Can someone find me a short toccata. I do like the one I'm working on
but, it's at slx pages or more long. So, could you guys find me a short
one like just only two pages? I would appreciate it!
judy tooley

[NEB]

I've always liked the BWV 538 - one of my favourites and it seems to be becoming popular again!!!!!!! I did learn it at one time, but I've never performed it, and not likely to either.

[Corno Dolce]

Hi Judy,

You say you want a short toccata - click on the link below:

http://icking-music-archive.org/scor...ata_d-moll.pdf

You may want to utilise this:

http://icking-music-archive.org/ByComposer.php

Cheers,

Corno Dolce

[Eric Solaski]

[quote=Argoth;27329]Hi Judy, as Krummhorn says, the Toccata and Fugue I am referring to is a different one. Bach wrote many Toccata's and many Fugues, as did other composers. I think it is somewhat more difficult than its more popular namesake, but that's from what it sounds to me. And no, I cannot play this myself (probably I can play the parts for each hand (with plenty of mistakes) after a lot of listening, but I haven't tried). As I've said, I don't read music or play the organ myself. Anyway, here is a video for your reference of the Toccata. I think this is just an amateur having some fun since there are some little slipups, but I love his tempo; most versions I hear tend to race too much.

+ YouTube Video

I agree this particular performance is rushed and loses much of the meaning. It is nevertheless, still beautiful. But the beauty is somewhat glossed over.

Towards the end after the pedal point it seems to make more sense though.

Eric Solaski

[methodistgirl]

This piece was played at my church last sunday after communion.
I love it. I hope Paul will play some more.
judy tooley

[falcon1]

One of my favorite organ piece... I performed it for my final exam in my music school.

[Eric Solaski]

[quote=Eric Solaski;27545]

Hi Judy, as Krummhorn says, the Toccata and Fugue I am referring to is a different one. Bach wrote many Toccata's and many Fugues, as did other composers. I think it is somewhat more difficult than its more popular namesake, but that's from what it sounds to me. And no, I cannot play this myself (probably I can play the parts for each hand (with plenty of mistakes) after a lot of listening, but I haven't tried). As I've said, I don't read music or play the organ myself. Anyway, here is a video for your reference of the Toccata. I think this is just an amateur having some fun since there are some little slipups, but I love his tempo; most versions I hear tend to race too much.

+ YouTube Video

I agree this particular performance is rushed and loses much of the meaning. It is nevertheless, still beautiful. But the beauty is somewhat glossed over.

Towards the end, after the pedal point, it seems to make more sense though.

Eric Solaski

Well, what the hell do I know. I don't understand music where you can not adjust the dynamics of individual notes like you can with a PIANO. Sorry, the sound of an organ is great, but you might as well throw out musicality. I will perform this same piece on a sample digital piano with the sound of an ORGAN. You will undoubtedly see and hear the truth of my complaint and lust.

Eric Solaski, PIANIST AT LARGE!!!! heheheheheee...

[Corno Dolce]

Hi Eric Solaski,

I hear and acknowledge your complaint about unvarying dynamics in re to the youtube vid. Since you play the piano and it seems that you have not been exposed to the different periods of organ literature, I can understand your rejection of what you have heard. Organs at the time of Bach did not have expression pedals connected to what is known as a swellbox, in which you have different sets or what we organists call ranks of pipes. With these ranks of pipes in a swellbox you can greatly vary and control the sound dynamics. The Baroque organ player used a system of "terraced dynamics" for to vary the tonal character of the piece being played. Below you can read a generalised idea of "terraced dynamics":

http://library.thinkquest.org/27927/...cteristics.htm

Now, if you were to experience vastly shifting dynamics on the organ, such as when the transcribed works of Richard Wagner are performed by, e.g. Peter Richard Conte at the Wanamaker, then you would understand the capabilities of a good instrument at the hands of a master. It'll even surpass the dynamic flexibilty of a full-size Symphony orchestra.

Cheers,

*Organist-at-Large* Corno Dolce