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JS Bach's Toccata and Fugue in D Minor ("Dorian") BWV 538

Argoth

New member
I wonder, how many on this board have/do play this work? I'm sure it's not one of the easier pieces. Anyway, it has slowly but surely become one of my favourite Bach works outside of the Klavierubung III.

Some of the recordings/videos I've seen have the work performed at some speed, but I lately came across a slightly slower execution than most, although the track doesn't have the details of who is playing it. I could be left alone to listen to it for a full day, and each time it will reveal something new. That's one of the times when I really regret not having started learning to read music from a young age, or I would now be playing the organ and practicing this piece until I could play it backwards and forwards by memory!
 

Krummhorn

Administrator
Staff member
ADMINISTRATOR
Hi Argoth (and congrats on achieving Ensign :trp:)

Yes, this work is part of my library - I've played it many times, but never in public. I prefer to keep the tempo at the slower execution and quite mechanical. Wonderful piece that is not played enough in concerts.
 

Corno Dolce

Admiral Honkenwheezenpooferspieler
Hello Argoth,

The *Dorian* toccata and fugue is a staple in my repertoire - I refuse to play it fast like Anthony Newman - Imho, one loses so much at his tempi. I guess that makes me a Romantic Sop :grin: Well, so be it. Doing your homework on the fingerings and pedaling you will find that it will *seep* into your hand and will stay there comfortably.

Cheers,

Corno Dolce
 

methodistgirl

New member
I know what you are saying Argoth. Toccata & fugue is a tough one to
learn. It's been a real booger for me! It takes time to learn this piece.
I've been working on Toccata & fugue since I got the sheet music last
summer. I'm just begining to get used to even the first three pages.
If the piece get too frustrating take a break and play something else
you know by Bach and keep listening to other people play it as you
follow along with the sheet music. It helps for me.:grin:
judy tooley
 

Krummhorn

Administrator
Staff member
ADMINISTRATOR
Judy,

The T&F we are chatting about here is BWV 538 (see attached). Although in D minor, this one is rather different. I think the one you are learning is BWV 565.
 

Argoth

New member
I know what you are saying Argoth. Toccata & fugue is a tough one to
learn. It's been a real booger for me! It takes time to learn this piece.
I've been working on Toccata & fugue since I got the sheet music last
summer. I'm just begining to get used to even the first three pages.
If the piece get too frustrating take a break and play something else
you know by Bach and keep listening to other people play it as you
follow along with the sheet music. It helps for me.:grin:
judy tooley

Hi Judy, as Krummhorn says, the Toccata and Fugue I am referring to is a different one. Bach wrote many Toccata's and many Fugues, as did other composers. I think it is somewhat more difficult than its more popular namesake, but that's from what it sounds to me. And no, I cannot play this myself (probably I can play the parts for each hand (with plenty of mistakes) after a lot of listening, but I haven't tried). As I've said, I don't read music or play the organ myself. Anyway, here is a video for your reference of the Toccata. I think this is just an amateur having some fun since there are some little slipups, but I love his tempo; most versions I hear tend to race too much.

[youtube]1hXkq006is8[/youtube]

Here's a video by a professional, but I personally think it is way too fast:

[youtube]hPhIOHUqe3A[/youtube]
 
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Krummhorn

Administrator
Staff member
ADMINISTRATOR
Hi Argoth,

Wonderful contrasting presentations of the same piece. I too prefer the more deliberate tempo of the first player. Comparing the times of the two videos, there is a minute, nineteen seconds difference. Indeed, the 2nd video is wayyy too fast for my taste.
 

methodistgirl

New member
Can someone find me a short toccata. I do like the one I'm working on
but, it's at slx pages or more long. So, could you guys find me a short
one like just only two pages? I would appreciate it!:grin:
judy tooley
 

NEB

New member
I've always liked the BWV 538 - one of my favourites and it seems to be becoming popular again!!!!!!! I did learn it at one time, but I've never performed it, and not likely to either.
 

Eric Solaski

New member
Toccata and Fugue

Hi Judy, as Krummhorn says, the Toccata and Fugue I am referring to is a different one. Bach wrote many Toccata's and many Fugues, as did other composers. I think it is somewhat more difficult than its more popular namesake, but that's from what it sounds to me. And no, I cannot play this myself (probably I can play the parts for each hand (with plenty of mistakes) after a lot of listening, but I haven't tried). As I've said, I don't read music or play the organ myself. Anyway, here is a video for your reference of the Toccata. I think this is just an amateur having some fun since there are some little slipups, but I love his tempo; most versions I hear tend to race too much.

[youtube]1hXkq006is8[/youtube]


I agree this particular performance is rushed and loses much of the meaning. It is nevertheless, still beautiful. But the beauty is somewhat glossed over.

Towards the end after the pedal point it seems to make more sense though.

Eric Solaski :D
 

methodistgirl

New member
This piece was played at my church last sunday after communion.
I love it.:grin: I hope Paul will play some more.
judy tooley
 

Eric Solaski

New member
Hi Judy, as Krummhorn says, the Toccata and Fugue I am referring to is a different one. Bach wrote many Toccata's and many Fugues, as did other composers. I think it is somewhat more difficult than its more popular namesake, but that's from what it sounds to me. And no, I cannot play this myself (probably I can play the parts for each hand (with plenty of mistakes) after a lot of listening, but I haven't tried). As I've said, I don't read music or play the organ myself. Anyway, here is a video for your reference of the Toccata. I think this is just an amateur having some fun since there are some little slipups, but I love his tempo; most versions I hear tend to race too much.

[youtube]1hXkq006is8[/youtube]


I agree this particular performance is rushed and loses much of the meaning. It is nevertheless, still beautiful. But the beauty is somewhat glossed over.

Towards the end, after the pedal point, it seems to make more sense though.

Eric Solaski :D

Well, what the hell do I know. I don't understand music where you can not adjust the dynamics of individual notes like you can with a PIANO. Sorry, the sound of an organ is great, but you might as well throw out musicality. I will perform this same piece on a sample digital piano with the sound of an ORGAN. You will undoubtedly see and hear the truth of my complaint and lust. ;)

Eric Solaski, PIANIST AT LARGE!!!! heheheheheee... :D
 

Corno Dolce

Admiral Honkenwheezenpooferspieler
Hi Eric Solaski,

I hear and acknowledge your complaint about unvarying dynamics in re to the youtube vid. Since you play the piano and it seems that you have not been exposed to the different periods of organ literature, I can understand your rejection of what you have heard. Organs at the time of Bach did not have expression pedals connected to what is known as a swellbox, in which you have different sets or what we organists call ranks of pipes. With these ranks of pipes in a swellbox you can greatly vary and control the sound dynamics. The Baroque organ player used a system of "terraced dynamics" for to vary the tonal character of the piece being played. Below you can read a generalised idea of "terraced dynamics":

http://library.thinkquest.org/27927/Baroque_Characteristics.htm

Now, if you were to experience vastly shifting dynamics on the organ, such as when the transcribed works of Richard Wagner are performed by, e.g. Peter Richard Conte at the Wanamaker, then you would understand the capabilities of a good instrument at the hands of a master. It'll even surpass the dynamic flexibilty of a full-size Symphony orchestra.

Cheers,

*Organist-at-Large* Corno Dolce :grin::grin::grin:
 

Eric Solaski

New member
Falling down the Terraces and breaking my bones. ;)

Hi Eric Solaski,

I hear and acknowledge your complaint about unvarying dynamics in re to the youtube vid. Since you play the piano and it seems that you have not been exposed to the different periods of organ literature, I can understand your rejection of what you have heard. Organs at the time of Bach did not have expression pedals connected to what is known as a swellbox, in which you have different sets or what we organists call ranks of pipes. With these ranks of pipes in a swellbox you can greatly vary and control the sound dynamics. The Baroque organ player used a system of "terraced dynamics" for to vary the tonal character of the piece being played. Below you can read a generalised idea of "terraced dynamics":

http://library.thinkquest.org/27927/Baroque_Characteristics.htm

Now, if you were to experience vastly shifting dynamics on the organ, such as when the transcribed works of Richard Wagner are performed by, e.g. Peter Richard Conte at the Wanamaker, then you would understand the capabilities of a good instrument at the hands of a master. It'll even surpass the dynamic flexibilty of a full-size Symphony orchestra.

Cheers,

*Organist-at-Large* Corno Dolce :grin::grin::grin:

I love the majesty and possible diminuative tones of the KING OF INSTRUMENTS. I love the organ and realize how much the interpreter of the music has to imbue into it great understanding and musicality. I will give another listen to the performance with good headphones. As far as terraced dynamics, I use that device many times especially with the Chopin Muzarkas.

Blue Cheers from the Baby Boom Era along with Vlad the Impaler Horowitz,

Eric ;)

P.S. I have played the Wanamaker. I believe I was cutting classes again at Philiadelphia Music Acadamia and took many liberities. It does seem that a musician has the key to the world. LOL ;)
 
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Corno Dolce

Admiral Honkenwheezenpooferspieler
Hi Eric,

I'm afraid you won't hear too much from the organist in question as to varied dynamics. Its not a part of his performance style for the piece. Frankly, I found his version of the "Dorian" very drôle and uninspiring. I also play the piano for fun and do a little "coaching" every now and then for budding young talents. Tell me, do you play the famous Sonata for Violin and Piano by Cesar Franck? What a grand baby that is!!! Its a masterpiece which pleases the crowds everytime.

Cheers,

Corno Dolce

Btw - terraced dynamics for organ is quite different from that on the piano. Organs around Bach's time where built on the *Werkprinzip* scheme e.g. Hauptwerk, Brustwerk, Oberwerk, and Pedalwerk.

Click on the link below so that you can get some good and meaty info on the history of organbuilding:

http://www.lawrencephelps.com/Documents/Articles/Phelps/rationaldesign.shtml

You got a chance to sample the Wanamaker? Right on, brother! That String Division in the Wanamaker organ is priceless - Man, I'd love to get a hold of such a division.
 
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Eric Solaski

New member
Hitting the Right Notes

Hi Eric,

Here is an example of varying dynamics by shifting between different manuals:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2eyCCjO3XI


Cheers,

Corno Dolce



Hello Xoeno Dulce,

I loved that piece.

The Organ AND the Piano are beautiful instruments in the right hands (and feet ;) ) But they are played with completly different techniques, i.e. If I played a fugue, I could easily play two parts of the fugue in one hand with the two voices having a different character of tone and loudness while the left would have two with some ocassional sharing of parts with both hands. THIS IS SIMULTANOUS, VARYING DYNAMICS. I wouldn't dream of even playing a melodic line with notes having NO dynamic change occuring along with other melodies having their own change of loudness in contrast with all the melodies.

Each melody, even in the same hand, has its own personal loudness or softness while the other melodies are softer. I could also play one voice in a gradual crescendo and yet simultanously have aother voice played with inverted dynamics and be played in decrescendo fading away in distant mist.

The possibilities are INDEED Infinite. I might chose a voice to SING while the others follow waiting for their turn to SING only at different points in the music. Who knows -- the mood might strike me to play the highest melody in a crisp twinkling manner making the fugue appear to have a halo above its body and head independent of the other voices' simultanous individual tone color and loudness from ppp to fff.

A Bard telling a story with inflections in his voice, his tunes must speak and move us in some way. This is music.

The King of instruments indeed has MANY in his bag of tricks. And EVERY trick is exceedingly difficult to master. But when you hear the bard, you are listening to music by a master.

Good Cheer to you,

Eric Solaski :):):):):):):)
 
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Corno Dolce

Admiral Honkenwheezenpooferspieler
Hello Sir Eric,

Good points that you share with the forum. Let us remember that the Rondo in G by John Bull was probably written for performance on a Virginal - something quite different than the Forte-Piano by Bartolomeo Cristofori, later to become the piano we all know. The same could be said for adapting piano works to organ, of which I often do.

The efficacy of a piano work adapted for the organ will, of course, depend on how informed and skilled the organist is. Some organist would never do such a thing. The famous *Funerailles* by Franz Liszt becomes a whole other animal on the organ. I heard a performance of it by Nicholas Kynaston and have a recording of it on the fabulous Klais organ in the Münster of Ingolstadt, Bavaria.

Somewhat recently I also committed to memory the same piece for organ performance. Not all of Liszt's piano oeuvre will adapt very well to the organ but I love the challenge in trying. Liszt's Magnum Opus for the organ is his *Ad Nos*. If you've never heard Liszt played on a beautiful organ by the hands of an acknowledged master then you must get yourself a copy of this:

http://www.guildmusic.com/catalog/gui7210z.htm

Be prepared for a sound tableau that will dazzle the mind.

Cheers,

Corno Dolce
 
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