Please diagnose these organ problems!

[Bach>Meer]

Hi all

I was practising last night and a strange thing happened. I switched the organ on and it started up, and the light which lights up the pedalboard came on as normal. After about 15 seconds it turned itself off. I heard the wind turn off in the organ loft and then a second later the light over the pedals went off. I kept trying and kept turning the organ on - only for it to turn itself off again.
Disappointed, I play the piano instead. Whilst playing piano the flowers on top of the organ literally fly off!! Very strange. So I say jokingly to others there that it could be a "sign"! So I try again. And it works.

Question is - what happened - it seems to be a possible problem with the electrics or would the heating starting to come on in church have anything to do with it?

Also one last point - when I turn the organ on - there's always a whistle - bit like a cipher but it turns off after 1 second. - Bit worried that it could develop into a proper cipher.

Any info guys/girls?


Thanks

[NEB]

Sounds eerie. No ideas sorry. Very odd turn of events. Can't help thinking some kind of electro-magnatic problem, but I'm certainly no expert and making wild guesses here.

[methodistgirl]

I would be contacting the builder or maintainance person who takes care
of organs. How old is the building your organ is in and send a picture of
it. I might have the answer if you can do that.
judy tooley

[Krummhorn]

Hi Bach>Meer,

Who is the builder of this pipe organ? Some builders years ago used an "air switch" that handled the switching on/off of the console electrical components, but that doesn't explain the blower turning itself off. I recently had to have an emergency service call for the Air Switch on Christmas Eve day as it developed a leak (after 29 years) and wouldn't inflate properly, thereby not moving the mercury inside the sealed vial which closes the loop and allows the console power (Rectifier) to turn on.

Could be a building electrical issue with a circuit breaker being temporarily overloaded, too.

You mention the heat being turned on in the church ... is there possibly a heating vent that is near the console (perhaps under it) ... some electronics inside the console (Rectifier, Power Supply, etc) could be getting too warm and have an internal "thermal protection circuit" that could possibly cause the console power to shut down, and if the blower is linked to that, could cause it to also shut down.

The console flowers is a mystery ... except to say that any water seeping from the plant that gets inside the console could wreak total havoc ...

The cipher or "wheeze" from the chamber when first turning on could simply be the air pressure building up inside the chest, or coming from the Air Regulator as it fills with air and rises ... My Möller does that periodically, too.

That's all I can think of at the moment ... It will be interesting to learn what others may have to say about this, too.

[jvhldb]

Could it possibly be a voltage drop? On our organ we have an Amp meter, if the current is too low, there is no way to get the blower to kick in, the console lights do come on, but they resemble dying fire flies. Happened to me once while practising for my sister's wedding, but then I gues you won't have electrical problems like we have.

[Krummhorn]

. . . Could it possibly be a voltage drop? . . . but then I guess you won't have electrical problems like we have.

Hi jvhldb,

Good answer ... a voltage drop would give some of those same symptoms.

What kinds of electrical problems do you have in your region?

[jvhldb]

Our electricity supplier ESKOM (responsable for supplying electricity to the whole of Southern Africa), didn't keep track of consumption so they reached maximum output in 2006. It takes 8-10 years to commission a new power station, so for the next couple of years we will have to learn to live with "brown outs", where the supplied current is reduced to the barest minimum (causing motors to over heat, power supplies on equipment to burn out etc.), load shedding where the electricity supply to whole regions are turned of for two hours a day (great for business). Everybody that can is buying generators. (If you wan't to make a fortune start exporting cheep generators to us). Add to this the ancient power grid ESKOM is using, our power is supplied by high voltage lines piping electricity from Cape Town (+/-1200 km away) or Gauteng (about 800km) and you will understand why we have a thing about electricity. It's not on common for our organist to start a song on the organ and finish the last verse or two on the piano by cande light.

[Krummhorn]

Johan,

Wow, I've heard of such things here in the states at times, but nothing to the degree that you are experiencing. I assume that these 'brown outs' don't occur at any particular time of day? I mean, if they did, at least people would be able to cope with it better ... silly me for thinking that a utility company would actually try to make this a livable situation for everyone. This can't be the best thing for the organs there ... especially the electronic ones ...

Does this only happen in your Summer or extend also into the Winter months?

[NEB]

My goodness Johan - what a nightmare. I guess we tend to take things like power supplies for granted and it's only when they are problematic that we start to appreciate just how good we have it in Europe/US etc...

[Bach>Meer]

Hi everyone

Thanks for your info. Much apprec.

I'm based in Manchester UK and we don't really have many electrical probs there. The lights were all on in church and they were perfectly ok for example.

I've had a few problems with this organ recently. Do you think I should ask the organ builders back to check the problems out?

Is it something they'd be able to sort?

Also while I'm on, I really need to try to solve some of these problems myself as companies have been ripping my church off for years.

Could anyone explain just how an electro-pneumatic organ works in detailed terms. For example how would my organ be powered (I take it from mains supply) and if so how, and also where do the wire(s) tend to be that run from the console to the chamber? And lastly how does the mechanism tend to work and how could I solve a cipher problem if ever it occurred again?

Thanks all!

[Krummhorn]

Hi Bach>Meer,

Intermittent problems take a good deal longer to sort out - it's hard to know where to look once the problem has gone away or isn't acting up when the technician is there.

If the cipher is truly one of the smaller pipes, you can locate the pipe and remove it; the large ones (8' and up) stuffing a lint free rag into the mouth will silence it temporarily. It will required the services of a qualified technician to fix the leaky valve mechanism.

The wiring between the console and the pipe chambers usually runs inside a sealed conduit under the floor or at the base of a wall. These wires are the "keying" lines between the keyboard and the pipe chests, one for each note and stop. There could be hundreds of wires in that conduit, and tracing those will require two people and a good deal of time to sort. I rather doubt this problem lies in that part of the organ.

Here's a good detail on Electro-pnuematic action from the Wikipedia.

There is also this Wikipedia site for the Pipe Organ that is quite thorough in explaining the different working parts of an organ, complete with hyperlinks on different subjects. This makes for excellent reading on the inner workings of the pipe organ.

Mander Organ company has had a good track record as a builder and restorer of pipe organs. You may consider them as an option for tuning/repairs

There is also this site: Institute of British Organ Building that may assist you in the quest of finding another reputable company for organ repairs.

Here in the US, good organ technicians are far and few between ... often there are no local builders or technicians in every state. I contract with Quimby Pipe Organs for organ tuning and maintenance ... the technician has to travel 1400 miles (2,253 km) twice each year to service this and six others here in Tucson, Arizona. (Tucson is roughly pronounced: tooh-sahn).

I wish you well with this frustrating problem and hope that you will keep us apprised of what is happening.

[jvhldb]

Johan,

Wow, I've heard of such things here in the states at times, but nothing to the degree that you are experiencing. I assume that these 'brown outs' don't occur at any particular time of day? I mean, if they did, at least people would be able to cope with it better ... silly me for thinking that a utility company would actually try to make this a livable situation for everyone. This can't be the best thing for the organs there ... especially the electronic ones ...

Does this only happen in your Summer or extend also into the Winter months?

As you guessed the cuts and brown outs happen at any time. In winter it happens more and for longer periods.

[AllanP]

I can describe one type of control system. My organ uses a latching relay for on-off control. A push button starts the blower, the motor starting contactor is held on by a contact on the stop push button. Intermittent contact of the stop push button can cause your problem if the same type of control is used (quite common for remote control of motors). The stop push button is connected in series with an auxiliary contact on the motor start contactor. A dirty contact will give the symptom you have observed. In my case, there is an air pressure switch sensing the air pressure at the blower outlet. If the pressure does not come up within about 1 minute, the blower shuts off along with the console power. A blown blower outlet coupling hose, blown regulator leather, broken air line, or excessively leaky air lines can cause this problem.

A second cause could be a motor overload protection circuit. Most motor starters have a time delay function which will turn off the motor if the blower is overloaded. The time delay is typically 30 seconds to 2 minutes. Overload of an organ blower would be caused by wind leaks which cause the blower to try to provide more air than normally used. Note that opening the blower outlet causes more load on the motor.

Some motors of low power run on single phase electric current (3 hp and up will almost always be 3 phase) requiring a motor start-run capacitor. There will be a switch which will cut out the start capacitor when the motor comes up to speed. If this switch fails to open or the motor does not come up to speed within a reasonable time (1 minute) the motor protection may cut off the power. Note that a smaller low pressure or neo-baroque instrument will probably have a single phase blower. A three phase motor would be used on a large church or more orchestrally voiced instrument.

These descriptions apply to the more modern type of blower (1920's or newer) ac motors. Older dc blowers will have similar systems which are more complex.

I hope this description helps. If you do get into the motor starting circuits, it is helpful to have a simple multimeter to diagnose problems. The air leak problem is easily diagnosed by ear.

[Pipeorgan09]

HELP! Just come away from my organ. Well. One of the stops stopped working on the swell. After, I shut of all the stops and noticed that the stop that is off is playing very quietly on some notes. The organ is direct electric action. Help anyone? Please! [/B][/U][/U][/B]

[Krummhorn]

HELP! Just come away from my organ. Well. One of the stops stopped working on the swell. After, I shut of all the stops and noticed that the stop that is off is playing very quietly on some notes. The organ is direct electric action. Help anyone? Please!

Sounds as if the slider, or its associated action, for that particular rank is failing to open all the way ... best to have a qualified pipe organ technician look at this problem. Who is the builder of this pipe organ? Wicks?