MyOrgan vs Hauptwerk

[Caddis]

The reference to problems with MyOrgan by mrdfes has prompted me to start this thread.I've downloaded mp3's for quite sometime (MyOrgan and Hauptwerk samples)from various websites and I have a preference for Hauptwerk samples,which in my view are of better quality.It got me thinking wether there are similar and/or other problems with Hauptwerk and vicaverser.

[musicalis]

Hi !
I agree with you, there are great quality differences between MyOrgan MP3 and Hautptwerk MP3. But you cannot compare MyOrgan with Hauptwerk version 2 or 3, you must only compare Myorgan with Hwk version 1. Then there are no very sensitive differences.

I am an MyOrgan user (for 2 months only) and I have spent a lot of time with this open source freeware. I can tell you it is really a nice software, even if Hwk2 & 3 are better.

I have not enough money to buy hwk3 and then buy a great sample set (more than 20 stops). With Myorgan, I have all that for free. More, I may have greatest organs than Hwk3 owners, with more stops and even very rare stops as I can make stops and ODF (organs definition files) by myself.
I don't think I could do the same with Hwk 2/3, it seems too difficult, even impossible.

Making an ODF for Myorgan or Hwk1 is very easy once you have understood the goal of each line in the file. You just need a text editor and a lot of patience.

Making a stop (I mean about sixty sampled wave files), is not difficult too, but needs an infinite patience. For half a pedal stop (about 16 samples) for instance, it took me about 8 hours non stop working yesterday on my computer. Today, I hope I'll have the time to complete the full rank.
My stops are not synthetized, they are real stops. The difference with commercial products is that I have not a sample for each key but the same sample is used for 4 keys (changing pitch of course). My samples sources come from the web, from mp3 demo mainly, not from free organ sets.

[Caddis]

Hi J.P.
Thanks for the input,I did'nt realise that making mp3's with MyOrgan or Hauptwerk could be that complex.May I ask,who is the composer of the Toccata Negra?

[mrfdes]

Hauptwerk does indeed have great qualities, but the main point is: MyOrgan is free.
With Hauptwerk, first of all, a hefty fee needs to be paid to buy the software and then it still costs a lot of money buying instruments for it. (I don't really remember how many instruments it comes with as standard, but I don't think there are many, and they are not exactly 'cream of the crop', ie. good, but not gigantic).

If I could afford HW, I might consider buying it, but only because I seem to have problems with MO, problems in the line of my ASIO driver on my soundcard (An M-Audio Delta 2496) not working properly with it, sometimes I have a crackle in my sound too, funny enough, I used to have a Sound Blaster Audigy, which is (in)famous for its crackle and pop, so I changed it for the M-Audio, and, indeed, many problems, eg. latency, sound quality, seemed to show a big improvement.
However, when using MyOrgan (with the Delta, that is), I started having problems with using the ASIO driver (which I did not have with the SB), and I seemed to get some crackle in my sound here and there, it has now improved having downloaded the latsest driver (just released) for the card, but it is still not 100%. I have sent messages both ways, ie. to the support people of M-Audio and to the author of MyOrgan, but both seem to be either reluctant, or unable (or both) to help.

A further problem I have is that I have lots of trouble getting the stops to do exactly what I want them to from my host MIDI application (Nuendo 3), the explanations on the Kloria web site are very vague about this, and I have changed the event for changing stops from a 'Note On' message to a 'Program Change' message, as the former did not send any stop change at all.

So, yes, if I could get those problems sorted, I would happily carry on using MO, even if only from a financial point of view.
They do say, 'never look a gift horse in the mouth' but obviously, if that horse has no legs, you are not going to get very far on it, are you?

[musicalis]

Dear Caddis !

I wrote the Toccata Negra.

Please visit my web site for more organ music :
http://musicalis.monespace.net/pages/11.html

Jean-Paul

[Caddis]

My Goodness!Well I must congratulate you for writing such a quality piece of music.
Btw the toccata is on my top 10 list.

[Analogicus]

To respond to mrfdes' MyOrgan problems, can I just say that I am using MyOrgan with a Windows XP system, driven just by a single Casio Midi keyboard, and selecting the stops onscreen. I have increased my RAM to 1.2 GB, and the CPU runs at 2.8 GB. I am not experiencing any kind of break-up; indeed the sound quality is amazing. The quality does of course depend on the sound samples, and on the Stier-Mockers organ I believe I can hear looping clicks on the mixture stop. But one can't blame MyOrgan for that. By the way, I use an Audigy 2ZS soundcard.

Having said that, I think I can hear some break-up sounds on musicalis' latest MyOrgan MP3 recording.

[musicalis]

Hi Analogiicus !
I am using MyOrgan with computer and keyboard similar as yours.
My computer is a PC , XP (family edition) 2.6 Mhz and updated to 1.2 Mb of ram. My Keyboard is a piano FP8 Roland. And also play MyOrgan with a smallest Pc computer (XP, 1Mb of ram, 1.6 MHz).

I use Myorgan in two ways:

1) playing in live with my midi keyboard and adding an hardware reverb (Alesis). I get very nice sounds with free organ samples sets only or with my own organ samples.

2) playing in non realtime with a freeware sequencer or with "Harmony Assistant". and adding reverb with Audacity or Soundforge.

About the looping clicks , there are not due to MyOrgan, but are only stored in the samples wave files.
When you create a sample (for instance bourdon8\01-c1.wav), you can have no click at all if the recorded sound in made with only one pipe. You can make a perfect loop.
If the sound if coming from several pipes (from cymbal, mixture, fourniture or from a combination of stops like gamba +celeste), it is very difficult to find loop points that suit to all pipes.
As it is physically impossible to synchronize the pipes or tune them with an huge accuracy, each wave (period) is slighty shifted with the previous one. No loop points seem to exist. As I make my own sample, I can tell you it is sometime very difficult to find a correct loop point. In stereo, it is much more difficult, even impossible.So we must accept a compromise, that is have a looping click as inaudible as possible.

[giwro]

. The quality does of course depend on the sound samples, and on the Stier-Mockers organ I believe I can hear looping clicks on the mixture stop. But one can't blame MyOrgan for that. By the way, I use an Audigy 2ZS soundcard.

Having said that, I think I can hear some break-up sounds on musicalis' latest MyOrgan MP3 recording.

I did the 'port of the Stiehr-Mockers from a sound font with permission from Joseph Basquin, and I can attest that the mixture stops are the hardest to loop - especially in this instance, where the samples are very short. I did my best to get glitch-less loops, but in some cases there was simply no way to avoid it completely. If you can hear them, you have pretty good ears!

For those of you who really want to explore this more, an invaluable tool is Zero-X seamless looper, which not only searches for optimal loop points, but also allows for crossfading, which can often help remove the clicks and obvious loop point problems.

Cheers,

- J

[Analogicus]

Allow me to correct my closing remark in my recent post: it was in mrfdes' MP3 recording of his enjoyable fugetta etc., made using MyOrgan, that I believe I can hear a very occasional breakup, and not in musicalis' MP3 recording. My ears may be good, but my memory is letting me down at times!

Since this is a MyOrgan/Hauptwerk thread, I would like to make the point which I believe has not been mentioned yet - namely that Hauptwerk requires MUCH more in terms of computer resources, leading to quite some expense beyond buying the program and suitable sample sets. Two of my organ friends in Sydney have Hauptwerk 2 installations in their homes, but I have yet to hear & play them. I have no doubt that the sound will be very pleasing.

There is another problem which others might comment on: the availability of suitable soundcards for these virtual organ programs. The Audigy 2ZS, for example, is no longer being made by Creative. Do we have an assurance that suitable soundcards will continue to be made?

Another factor is the availability of support when problems arise. There seems to be no chatlist or other help for MyOrgan users, as distinct from a number of the other virtual organ programs. I see this as a real disadvantage.

[giwro]

As a long-time user of BOTH programs, I need to make a gentle correction here - it is quite possible to use Hauptwerk on a low-powered computer with similar results to MyOrgan. In some cases, Hauptwerk actually performs better(!). The caveat is that some of the features must be disabled (wind model, swell box modeling, etc) for comparable performance. This is not really a problem, since MyOrgan does not have these features, and then one is comparing apples to apples. Since the program is easily transferred to another computer, you can always re-enable those features at a later date when you can afford a new machine. There is also the added benefit that (on a Windows machine) Hauptwerk can be run as a VST within Sonar, Cubase or the like, which allows for even more flexibility.

Hauptwerk=more features, better support, more stable, costs more
MyOrgan=Free, less support, great way to experiment
and see if you really want to start in on an expensive hobby!

Cheers,

-G

Since this is a MyOrgan/Hauptwerk thread, I would like to make the point which I believe has not been mentioned yet - namely that Hauptwerk requires MUCH more in terms of computer resources, leading to quite some expense beyond buying the program and suitable sample sets.

<snip>

Another factor is the availability of support when problems arise. There seems to be no chatlist or other help for MyOrgan users, as distinct from a number of the other virtual organ programs. I see this as a real disadvantage.

[Caddis]

Hi Giwro and Analogicus
Out of interest,I assume that Zero-X automaticaly searches for optimal loop points,does the programme give manual options should one want to move loop points manually.Could someone give an idea,more or less what the minimum pc setup (amount of ram etc.) would be for MyOrgan and Hauptwerk.I'm intrigued as to how much more computer resources Hauptwerk requieres than MyOrgan.

[giwro]

Zero-X searches for the optimal loop point, but you can also choose alternates (which are provided in a list). Let me assure you from experience (several THOUSAND .wav files looped!) that it does a far better job than you or I will ever do manually.

The amount of RAM needed in MyOrgan or Hauptwerk is dependent on what size of sample set you are loading. Both programs offer a compression schema that reduces RAM requirements approximately 40%. I've run both programs on everything from an old AMD 1.25 ghz to a modern Core Duo Intel 2.8 ghz.

Check the sample sets you wish to run and see if you have enough free RAM to load them - there are a few small ones that would probably load just fine on a PC with as little as 512mb, but at least 1.5gb is probably preferable

Cheers,

-G

Hi Giwro and Analogicus
Out of interest,I assume that Zero-X automaticaly searches for optimal loop points,does the programme give manual options should one want to move loop points manually.Could someone give an idea,more or less what the minimum pc setup (amount of ram etc.) would be for MyOrgan and Hauptwerk.I'm intrigued as to how much more computer resources Hauptwerk requieres than MyOrgan.

[musicalis]

Hi !

I started to use MyOrgan with a Pc computer 2 month ago. It is a cheap computer, 3 years old, with XP and only 500 Mb of ram, no additionnal soundcard. I had no problem to run Myorgan with any of the free sample set found on the Web. But with the biggest of these organs I had to free a maximum memory, closing some hidden applications and windows services.
Then I build biggest organs and I had to buy some memory (1 Gb, for 50 Euros). now I have 1.250 Mb and big organs run very well.

[musicalis]

Dears friends

I have added 9 pages about MyOrgan & hauptwerk version 1 in my website. You can see it at :
http://musicalis.monespace.net/pages/47.html

Jean-Paul