Election 08

[Krummhorn]

Thanks, Intet-at-tabe :tiphat:

You hit the nail on the head about spending ... seems the US is more than willing to "help" foreign entities while our own citizens are starving and have no place to live. We are living at a time where our income level buys us less - We used to get 3 bags of groceries for $50 - now we get one bag ... our price of gasoline is rising beyond belief while the oil companies are raking in record profits (corporate greed) and their executives are being paid millions of dollars, for what purpose?

The most important person in our nation is the President - nobody but nobody should ever be allowed to earn more money than what he or she is paid, which is currently around $400k. Any overage to that amount would be a tax owed - we would be able to balance the nations budget and feed all our hungry, and provide decent medical care for everybody.

I was on a choir tour in Austria years ago - our guide was asked about the job market there and how they dealt with unemployment. He replied (this was in 1992, btw so situations may have changed) that the unemployment was less than 1% - Professional people (doctors, lawyers etc) were only allowed to make $35k per year, medical care was provided to every citizen by the state, and if the number of jobless people rose, they instantly created new jobs for these people.

I don't know if this is how things are in other foreign countries, but if true, the US could take a lesson here and try to amend its ways and truly live up to its own standards by our own phrase "Where all men are created equal!"

 

[intet_at_tabe]

Master Krummhorn

Hospitalisation and going to your family doctor in Denmark like in Austria and most European countries are payed commonly by all citizens over the taxes. Like our Police all over Denmark is a taxed financed buisness under the Justice Department, equally performed everywhere in Denmark. Churches as well are supported by the taxes, we all pay.

They said on the Danish News yesterday evening that the weak american Dollar is a threat to the entire economical system throughout the world. They also indicated that the price of 1 gallon of gasoline might increase to 4 Dollars. This explosion of the decreasing value of the US Dollars have been the results since the Iraq campaign began.

In Denmark you pay more than 1 Dollars and 45 cents for 1 litre of gasoline. So even if you have to pay 4 dollars a gallon it is still for the Danes only to dream about.

The thing I can´t comprehend or figure out at all about the current President George W. Bush Jr. related to a former Republican President Richard Nixon. RN was excused from The White House, meaning he was sacked from the highest office in The United States of America on two accounts of lies:

1) RN lied to the american people about the breaking of the Democrat´s headquarters at the Wategate building, orchestrated by The White House. The scandale was disclosed by two journalists from the Washington Post Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein.

2) RN lied about the hundreds of thousands of US Dollars from all over the USA, which went into the secret accounts of The Committee to Reelect The President.

Two lies spread throughout the USA to the american people were enough for the President then to be sacked.

This current President from 2000-08 has broken more than 750 constitutional laws, beside every international made agreement within the U.N. going back to 1948.

And yet, George W. Bush Jr. is still the President of the USA. The laws specified for Presidents have not changed that much since his Republican colleague Richard Nixon was the President in the beginning of the 1970´s.

So how come? What is the answer to this incredible diabolic difference as to when the President tells lies? Why haven´t the US public demanded for him to be sacked?

It hurts me personally to have to watch how politically badly mannered the USA has been for the past 8 years and in particular how much corruption the Hill has been exposed on. Remember you vote for the politicians, never the other way around, though most of the current ones from both blue and red states seems to think, they are alowed to increase their personal pockets, while being representatives for individual americans.

The Iraq campain wasting trillions of dollars, while americans at the amount of 47 million american people are left with nothing - The USA Army not realy gaining anything whatsoever in Iraq, except killing a heck of lot of hundreds of thousands of innocent civilian people and your own young men and women, perhaps never to be parents or to return home in one piece, in the US military services, who has non whatsoever political indfluence or saying in any of the two countries.

You can´t democratise the sovereign state of Iraq not with a gun to their necks and by screening, by the CIA, every new political figure or member in the new iraqi parliament - period. Iraq has a culture 5000 years old, always in it´s history influenced and invaded by foreign nations for interests of imperialism and the Christian religion for centuries. Like Afghanistan has never lost in a war against anyone.

Besides the US desperate intersts in iraqi oil, and having a bridgehead to the enemy number one Iran and the fact that President George W. Bush Jr. can not admit to losing face, though the entire international coalition has fallen apart - There´s no reason at all for the USA to stay put in Iraq - never was in the first place. In the short, sharp and shot version, Iraq has become the embarrasement of the USA foreign policies numero uno, number one throughout hte time since WWII.

The fact that the most wanted man on the planet the Al Qaeda terrorist and organizer Osama bin Laden is still at large is another humiliating fact for the entire western aliance.

And back home in the USA, Pesident Jr. went on a sponsor trip, while thousands of americans in New Orleans became innocent victims of the Katrina hurricane. What a guy?

 

[methodistgirl]

Doesn't all nations have the same trouble with their prime ministers and
presidents? I know that America isn't the only nation with a crooked
government.
judy tooley

 

[Mahlon]

I do find it rather frustrating that the Amercan people have not become more outraged by the atrocities of the Bush administration. Excuse me, but it makes we want to vomit ten times over. I think the biggest reason that Americans have allowed the greatest travesty to ever aquire power in all of history, apart from blind stupidity and ignorance, is the idea of partisan politics. The divide between the Republicans and the Democrats is portrayed by the media as extremely deep, when I really believe that in general, most people are alot more common than we give them credit for. I don't think anybody would say In all honesty, that they'd be happy if an innocent person was convicted for a crime. But under the blind idealogy of the neo-cons, many people have been duped into following their every dogma. Forgive me for saying this, but I think the Neo-cons believe in a modern form of facism. If we stopped worrying about whose side everyone was on and started using our MINDS and REASONED about the issues, we might actually get things done. I was arguing with a republican recently over wether or not WaterBoarding should be used against enemy combatants. I was and am strongly opposed to any form of torture, wether or not it carries the label "enhanced interrogation techniques." I explained to my friend the fact that by using techniques such as waterboarding, we are not only giving up our humanity, but we are likely obtaining false information, for people will say anything if you pressure them hard enough. Top millitary officials have repeatedly stated this indefutable fact, yet no on the Bushies side seems to care. Her response? She said, "yeah maybe water boarding is unpleasant, but if it gets answers, than lets use it." You would assume that the person saying these things is either blinded by ideology or extremly idiotic. Unfortuanetely, she is the worse of the two, blinded by idelogy. I believe that many people have just been forced into a state of fear, in which they will follow any and everythign that their "dear leader" tells them, (reference to Kim Jong Il) I sincerely hope that Americans can get out of this stump of anti-rationalism and begin ACTUALLY THINKING. Rather than acting first, and acting questions later, rather than presuming guilty before innocent, rather than being brainwashed into believing that leaders can Never make mistakes. I'm sorry to say this, but I think that people are just afraid to admit the obvious. You voted for the wrong guy, its ok, I forgive you. Now come to your senses and speak up for TRUTH. As Bushly famous botched... Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.

 

[methodistgirl]

All of us from all nations have been lied to. It's not just us americans.
What do you think all of this fight is all about with all of these wars
going on. Those in south africa, england,all of scandinavia, and the
middle east. Do you really want to know why countries in the middle
east don't like us. It's because our government sticks it's nose where
it doesn't belong. Our government is just playing around with getting
Bin Laden and our troops can't do nothing for it. Except
get themselves killed.
judy tooley

 

[Corno Dolce]

Dear Mahlon,

Sir, with all due respect to your feelings and sentiments I disagree with your drawing parallels between leaders in Washington D.C. and Kim Jong-il. Kim Jong-il and his father Kim il-Sung before him have sent many millions of North Koreans to the gas chambers and starvation camps all in the name of ideological purity and reeducation. In my spare time I volunteer for an NGO that helps North Koreans escape from the tyranny of Kim Jong-il. I beseech you to be more circumspect in your judgements of our political leaders' failures.

Humbly,

Corno Dolce

 

[intet_at_tabe]

All of us from all nations have been lied to. It's not just us americans.
What do you think all of this fight is all about with all of these wars
going on. Those in south africa, england,all of scandinavia, and the
middle east. Do you really want to know why countries in the middle
east don't like us. It's because our government sticks it's nose where
it doesn't belong. Our government is just playing around with getting
Bin Laden and our troops can't do nothing for it. Except
get themselves killed.
judy tooley

Ms. Judy

I agree with you to a certain degree. Though in the past 8 years, the USA as the former World Leader has singled itself out to be not trustworthy to it´s own alieds and the ordinary hard working americans.

My real argument on this forthcoming 2008 election for the Presidency is:

Why does the current Republican President George W. Bush Jr. and his Republican Government, the CIA, the military complex of the USA, who always benefit during wars and the dangerous outfit of the Neo-cons. equals the new facism of these United States of America during the years of 2000-2008 - do not have to apply to the same rules and laws in your Constitution and the USA penal code as every one else on the ordinary pavement on every street or in every city, like Mr. and Ms. Smith - have to apply to in America?

In other words, facismus and anarchy on the move, while most of you ordinary americans looking at it, without doing anything whatsoever to preserve your Right´s as americans in a democratical country?

When the ones, who were elected in a democratical election in 2000 and the midterm elections in 2004, who make the laws, the ledgeslators, Congress, House of the Representatives, The Hill outfit and the White House in common have a different set of unwritten rules and laws, not known to ordinary people equals - that´s facismus on the move from a democracy to an anarchy, where facism among the typical US millionaires in Congress at the Hill rules.

The same selfish millionaires, who already have enough, who fill their own pockets, you elect for office and seats in Congress. Why or how can you critizese other countries then for the same thing?

If you want to or need to present the USA as the best country in the world, the most democratical country in the world, the richest country in the world - Get your act together then, a clean up your own country first, and then afterwards you may show off. As it has been for 8 years, the President Jr. and his warmongers has done nothing whatsoever to please the ordinary needing poor America.

I guess, you might as well now - sooner than later - apply for aid for food from the U.N., and don´t think for one minute the next time you shout WOLF, that you´ll have any loyal countries to back you again, like we all (27) did with Iraq - for all the wrong reasons.

 

[intet_at_tabe]

Btw. I am looking forward to see the account on how many billions of Dollars it will cost the taxpayers of the USA to rebuilt, what you have torn down and destroyed in Iraq, like it was promised by President Jr. in 2003.

You replaced one tyrant Saddam Hussain with another tyrant behind the overwhelming combined military forces, who used the same methods of enterrorgations as Saddam Hussain did - Torture?

Of course you know that torture on POW´s or ordinary prisoners are not alowed within a democracy.

 

[Mahlon]

Corno Dolce, I understand there is a large difference between the North Korean regime and the American government. Thankfully, we still have a few rights left, the right to free speech as an example, to protest the government. Although I do not think it is wrong to say that many of the actions the Bush administration has taken in the name of "freedom" are very similiar to the ideological opressive regime of the North Koreans. Don't get me wrong, I know it is nothing near as openly opressive as it is in North Korea. But I think that what we do to other countries, namely Iraq, is arguably just as bad, maybe even worse, as what the NK government does to its own. You cannot deny that the Iraq war has cost the lives of thousands of innocent Iraqis, and you also cannot deny that we went into war on the basis of false information and war-mongering, and lastly, one cannot deny that we handled this war in the most horrible way, sending in 100,000 or so troops because defense secretary rummy wanted to show that America could kick ass, when most if not all of his millitary advisers were saying, "Yes, with 100,000 and many bombs we can get rid of Saddam Hussein, but we must send in at least 250 to 500 thousands troops in order to sustain any kind of stability in Iraq after the invasion." You may say that the intention to go to war was an honorable one, or that if we're against the war somehow we are against our troops, but when it comes down to it, the facts are the facts. I repeat, I know it sounds completely crazy to equate the American government with the tryanical Kim Jong Il, but unfortuanetly, I do believe that we are not far off in becoming a government which has no respect for its people. With all due respect, read the patriot act and come back to me when your done. http://w2.eff.org/Privacy/Surveillance/Terrorism/20011031_eff_usa_patriot_analysis.php
http://epic.org/privacy/terrorism/hr3162.html

 

[Mahlon]

from the electonic fronteir foundation, analysis of patriot act

Executive Summary

Chief Concerns

The EFF's chief concerns with PATRIOT include:

1. Expanded Surveillance With Reduced Checks and Balances. PATRIOT expands all four traditional tools of surveillance used by law enforcement -- wiretaps, search warrants, pen/trap orders and subpoenas. Their counterparts under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) that allow spying in the U.S. by foreign intelligence agencies have similarly been expanded. This means:
   1. Be careful what you read on the Internet. The government may now monitor the online activities of innocent Americans, and perhaps even track what Web sites you read, by merely telling a judge anywhere in the U.S. that the spying could lead to information that is "relevant" to an ongoing criminal investigation. The person spied on does not have to be the target of the investigation. This application must be granted and the government is not obligated to report to the court or tell the person spied upon what it has done.
   2. Nationwide roving wiretaps. FBI and CIA can now go from phone to phone, computer to computer without demonstrating that each is being used by a suspect or target of an order, or even specifically identifying the person targeted. The government may now serve a single Title III wiretap, FISA wiretap or pen/trap order on any person or entity nationwide, regardless of whether that person or entity is named in the order. The government need not make any showing to a court that the particular information or communication to be acquired is relevant to a criminal investigation. In the pen/trap or FISA situations, they do not even have to report where they served the order or what information they received. The EFF believes that the opportunities for abuse of these broad new powers are immense. For pen/trap orders, while ISPs or others who are not specifically named in the order do have the legal right to request certification from the Attorney General's office that the order applies to them, they have no right to request such confirmation from a court.
   3. ISPs hand over more user information. The law makes two changes to increase how much information the government may obtain about users from their ISPs or others who handle or store their online communications. First it allows ISPs to voluntarily hand over all "non-content" information to law enforcement with no need for any court order or subpoena. §212. Second, it expands the records that the government may seek with a simple subpoena (no court review required) to include records of session times and durations, temporarily assigned network (I.P.) addresses, and means and source of payments, including credit card or bank account numbers. §§210, 211.
   4. New definitions of terrorism expand scope of surveillance. One new definition of terrorism and three expansions of previous definitions also expand the scope of surveillance. PATRIOT §802's definition of "domestic terrorism" (amending 18 USC §2331) raises concerns about legitimate protest activity being prosecuted as terrorism, especially if violence erupts, while additions to three existing definitions of terrorism (int'l terrorism per 18 USC §2331, terrorism transcending national borders per 18 USC §2332b, and federal terrorism per amended 18 USC §2332b(g)(5)(B)) expose more people to surveillance (and potential "harboring" and "material support" liability, §§803, 805).
2. Overbreadth with a lack of focus on terrorism. Several provisions of PATRIOT have no apparent connection to preventing terrorism. These include:
   1. Government spying on suspected computer trespassers with no need for court order. §217.
   2. Adding samples to DNA database for those convicted of "any crime of violence." §503. This provision allows collection of DNA for terrorists, but then inexplicably also allows collection for the broad, non-terrorist category of "any crime of violence."
   3. Wiretaps now allowed for suspected violations of the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act. This includes anyone suspected of exceeding authorized access to a computer used in interstate commerce and thereby causing over $5000 worth of combined damage.
   4. Dramatic increases to the scope and penalties of the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act. These include: 1) raising the maximum penalty for violations to 10 years (from 5) for a first offense and 20 years (from 10) for a second offense; 2) ensuring that violators only need to intend to cause damage generally, not intend to cause damage or other specified harm over the $5,000 statutory damage threshold; 3) allowing aggregation of damages to different computers over a year to reach the $5,000 threshold; 4) enhancing punishment for violations involving any (not just $5,000) damage to a government computer involved in criminal justice or the military; 5) including damage to foreign computers involved in U.S. interstate commerce; 6) including state law offenses as priors for sentencing; 7) expanding the definition of loss to expressly include time spent on investigation, response, damage assessment and restoration.
3. Allows Americans to be More Easily Spied Upon by U.S. Foreign Intelligence Agencies. Just as the domestic law enforcement surveillance powers have expanded, the corollary powers under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act have also been greatly expanded, including:
   1. General Expansion of FISA Authority. FISA authority to spy on Americans or foreign persons in the U.S. (and those who communicate with them) increased from situations where obtaining foreign intelligence information is "the" purpose of the surveillance to anytime that it is "a significant purpose" of the surveillance.
   2. Increased information sharing between domestic law enforcement and intelligence. This is a partial repeal of the wall put up in the 1970s after the discovery that the FBI and CIA had been conducting investigations on over half a million Americans during the McCarthy era and afterwards, including the pervasive surveillance of Martin Luther King in the 1960s. It allows wiretap results, grand jury information and other evidence collected in a criminal case to be disclosed to the intelligence agencies when the information constitutes foreign intelligence information.
   3. FISA detour around federal domestic surveillance limitations; domestic detour around FISA limitations. Domestic surveillance limits can be skirted by the Attorney General, for instance, by obtaining a FISA wiretap against a U.S. person where "probable cause" does not exist, but when the person is suspected to be an agent of a foreign government. The information can then be shared with the FBI. The reverse is also true.

 

[Corno Dolce]

Hi Mahlon,

I'm sorry to say that I find nothing new here in regards to the U.S. Government assembling "electronic dossiers" on its citizens and those coming to and leaving from America. Thanks to the internet it has become much easier for Police Departments, FBI, CIA and the numerous other acronym agencies to fulfill the role that the constituency(by majority vote) clamoured for: Safety from Terrorism.

For the past fifteen years we have seen the emergence of transnational terrorist groups who do not readily identify with a foreign government but with certain foreign governments help are conducting or trying to set up operations in Western countries. They will recruit from the civilian population to meet their goals and thusly, all citizens are now, and I quote Gen. Sir Rupert Smith: "an objective to be won".

Non-state actors such as Al-Qaeda use the very freedoms we in the West have enjoyed to carry out their Chaos. To simply say that the U.S. is getting its comeuppance from those who feel slighted is but petulant ignorance.

Of course, the situation isn't helped being rectified when a Minister shouts "God Damn America" from a Church pulpit as we recently saw in the media.
The prescient adage: "I can tell what kind of a person you are by the friends you keep" so keenly captures scalawags with their hands in the cookie jar.

America has not had one demonstrable terrorist attack with a deadly outcome since 9/11. I invite you to read up about Counter-Insurgency Warfare ergo, the struggle we have today through historical treatises about: "On War" by Carl von Clausewitz - edited and translated by Michael Howard and Peter Paret, "Phillipine War" by Brian McAllister Linn, "A Savage War of Peace": Algiers by Alistair Horne, "Learning to eat soup with a knife": "Counter Insurgency": lessons from Malaya and Vietnam by John Nagl, "The Utility of Force" by Rupert Smith, "The Sling and the Stone" by Thomas Hammes, Mao Tse-Tung's "On Guerilla Warfare", and "Counter-Insurgency Warfare" by David Galula. These books are part of my Master's Program in Diplomacy and Military Studies. They will help you to refine your thinking on today's most pressing problems. I welcome you back to a fruitful dialogue after you have finished reading these.

Respectfully yours,

Corno Dolce

 

[methodistgirl]

Would you like to know that I think this country needs in a president?
Remember how President Ford got us out of Vietnam? That is what
we need is one like him and Abraham Lincoln.
judy tooley

 

[Mahlon]

Hello Corno,
I apologize for being so rudely brash, I just get extremely worked up about these things, although I do believe that some of what I have said has truth to it, and I am curious to know your opinion on such subjects as waterboarding, what you think about our being in Iraq, and how that has in any way made us directly safer, last time I checked, our being in Iraq had escalated the growth of terrorism in the middle east, what ever happened to Osama Bin Laden, do you think we should have focused more on Afghanistan as I strongly believe? I'd really like to know. I can't say that I'm majoring in Diplomacy, and I'm positive my knowledge of the issue is much less exhaustive than yours, (which is why I'm so curious about what you think), but I do have strong convictions, and I try to use reason as much as I possibly can when I look at current events and the like. I suppose I could lighten up on the somewhat "fervent" tone of my writings hehe.. And I look forward to reading those books.. I am not being a kiss ass when I say that I reallly reallly appreciate that you even took the time to speak to me, thank you! The "god dam America" remark is rather unfortuanete, though if you look deep enough I think you will find sufficient dirt on each of the candidates =) This has turned out to be a wonderful thread!

Sincerely, Mahlon Berv

 

[Corno Dolce]

Dear Mahlon,

Sir, all is forgotten about the "brashness" of which you speak - no worries, mate It is very good that you have strong convictions. You wouldn't be a "Mensch" if you didn't. One of the hardest things to accomplish as a human is to be able to temper the convictions, passions, and reasoning with a good knowledge base acquired by serious study of an academic discipline at the University level. Todays society is very dependent on professional people with Graduate and Post-Graduate skill-sets.

Then comes the on-the-job training which will put to use the theoretical framework you have acquired in your advanced studies. We all feel sometimes that this and that candidate or politician is a crook, jerk, and other unmentionable expletives in the discharging of their duties and that they should be raked over the coals for their malfeasance.

When all that raking is done, what have we won by it? Yes, I certainly agree with Mark Twain in his opinion about "Washington D.C. is a stud farm for jackasses". Still, we(the U.S.) desperately need people who have skill-sets that include rigorous studies in History, Political Science, Economics, and cross-cultural Psychology.

With all due respect sir, what I personally feel about Iraq, Afghanistan, Al-Qaeda, and Iran remains private. However, based on historical fact I will go on the record and state that the criminal conduct of Emperor Hadrian, whose hatred of Judea was so encompassing, he had all the maps with reference to Judea be stricken off the map and the word "Palestine" affixed to the maps. Thusly, a major part of the struggle betwixt the Arabs and Israel was born.

And now with the acknowledgement of an independent Kosovo by the current Senate, Congress and White House critters, we are staring right down into the gaping chasm of WW IV. The world was preoccupied with the Cold War to even notice the simmering tensions that were mounting in the Middle-East and the Balkans in particular.

Kosovo is Serbian Land. Moslems have been flowing into Kosovo since the fall of Constantinople on 29 May 1453. The former Yugoslavia tried to quash the tensions between the different ethnic groups but they only went underground to continue with the hostilities. With the dissolving of the Yugoslav Confederation in the 1990's the different ethnic groups began openly clashing with deadly consequences. Just because Kosovo has 1.5 million Muslims and only 300,000 Serbs, no right is given to the U.S. or the E.U. to acknowledge an independent Kosovo run by Muslims. Lets not be surprised when Russian Peace-keeping troops arrive in Serbian Lands. Russia will not stand for their Serbian brethren being attacked.

Ok, here endeth my screed for today.

Cheers,

CD

 

[Oboe]

Well, I'm not really big into politics, but I know who I don't want for president

1. Hillary "the witch" Clinton
2. Barack Hussein Osama (whoops I mean "Obama")

I know Hillary Clinton is a lying, cheating, hypocritical witch who shouldn't be president. Anything "good" (if there is anything) that came out of the Clinton presidency, HC says that she had everything to do with. But, you get to some of the shadier things that happened during the presidency and it turns to, "It was all him. I had nothing to do with it." She is so fake! I just can't stand her.

I know that Barack Obama goes to a church that is frequently described as a racist church, and I've got to agree with that. He just seems fake to me, and I don't think that he can "save" America. It's like Al Gore getting the Nobel peace prize....it's stupid.

On the other hand, Ron Paul thinks that we shouldn't have so many troops still in Iraq, and that we should protect our own borders on our land, and stop protecting everyone else's. It makes sense. I'd still like to see a candidate who is firmly for the Fair Tax, though.




I have a question:
Clinton, McCain, and Obama are on a ship. The ship sinks. Who survives?



answer: The United States

 

[Contratrombone64]

Oboe you say you know that Hillary Clinton is a lying ... based on what?? You have facts or just heresay and anecdotes?

 

[Corno Dolce]

Madame Kommisar Klinton lied about ducking under sniper fire in Bosnia.

:shake::scold:

 

[Contratrombone64]

Yikes - naughty, and I guess that's ok. Integrity isn't an essential quality for a politician, so all's good in love and war (no pun).

 

[intet_at_tabe]

Yesterday Barrack Obama finally won the nessesary 2.118 delegates to be appointed to the candidate for the Presidency of the Democratical party in the USA.

After the results of the South Dakota and the elections in Montana Obama came out as the winner. Hilary "the nutcracker" Clinton will not retire from her campain, though she has lost. Rumours say she will negociate with Barrack Obama to be the Vice President - if Obama wins over John McCain from the Republican party, come the November 2008 elections.

Funny in our own election at the MIMF, Barrack Obama is leading - way ahead.

 

[Krummhorn]

Hillary for veep? Oh goodness, I certainly hope not - I would like to think that Mr. Obama was much smarter than that ... I mean, God forbid, if Barrack were to become incapacitated in any way, Hillary would automatically become President :banghead: - Yikes!!

Seems Mrs. Clinton, like Al Gore, doesn't want to give up ... while I believe that a woman in the White House would be great for this nation, that woman is not Hillary ... Condie Rice would be a far better, imho. Hillary is just in this race for the personal glory only, more concentrated on being a "first" instead of wanting to be a great leader.

It will be interesting to see the name list for Obama's veep - I would bet most anything that Hillary is not on that list ... if she is, it would be a sad mistake for this country, as we would then have two veeps, not one. Horrifying thought, huh?