Election 08

[Contratrombone64]

krummiest - you're right, as always.

[intet_at_tabe]

[quote=Krummhorn;48727]Bzzzztt ... ... the Church is totally separate from the State (government) in the US ... we do not have a "national church" nor "state church". quote]

Master Krummhorn

With all do respect sir.

Do you remember Jerry Farwell, who passed away a couple of years ago, the originator of the baptist/christian organisation Moral Majority? This organisation turned an yearly income more than 70 million dollars payed for by true believers of The Lord and Jesus Christ from all over the USA. Until the FBI in the middle of the 1980´s began to study and investigate, where all these money went to. They found that 2/3 of these money went straight into the pocket of Jerry Farwell. However these investigations against Moral Majority were ended, when the USA had a new political government - the Republican government?

The same Jerry Farwell, who could not defend himself in court from the expression spoken by Larry Flynt (the owner and editor of Hustler magazine): "Jerry Farwell is an addicted alchoholic and an incesturous pig". Jerry Farwell lost his own case in court. Soon after this Larry Flynt was shot down on an open street?

Moral Majority had another selfchosen obligation. No republican politician would ever be alowed to run for the US Congress, had he not been screened and approved of by the Moral Majority and Jerry Farwell personally, which would indicate that the Church, the organisation Moral Majority had huge influence in political matters on the Republican Party on the Hill in DC. Most true christian believers in the USA today are possitive on reinforcement of the USA military? Most christian believers in the USA today believe more in the word from the Old testament, than they believe in Darwinism. Aprox. 100 million Americans according to the International Gallup Research Institute.

The Bible as we all know of it was never a democratical statement.

When President Jr. announced the invation of Iraq to the American people and the world outside the USA he stated, that he had a conversation with God the night before, who supported his idea to invade Iraq? Like God supported the USA, when Lyndon B. Johnson signed the military proposal to iniciate 42 consecutice days and nights on Napalm and agent orange bombings over North Vietnam in the 1960´s. Do you Master Krummhorn believe God would say yes - Kill anyone you please for in my name?

But it´s not the key issues here on whether a country apply to democracy or not.

You can disclose or detect whether your country is a democracy or not through simple asked questions:

1) Do my country accept torture as a tool of punishment on prisoners, not even trialed yet?

2) Do my country accept and respect the Human Rights?

3) Do my country accept and respect the Geneva Convention on Warfare?

4) Do my country accept assassinations on our democratical political elected leaders and political leaders in foreign countries?

5) Do my country accept and respect the right for all people to be different and have different opinions?

6) Do my country accept, that no politician nor ordinary citizens are above the law of my country?

7) Do my country accept equallity and freedom for all men and women to all citizens in my country according to the Constitution of my country?

8) Do my country accept and respect the U.N. as an international forum for all countries to meet and discuss international disagreements - peacefully?

9) Do my country accept and respect that all prisoners have the right to legal representation to help to defend one self?

10) Do my country accept and respect that religion has nothing to do with politics?

11) Do my country accept slavery in any form?

Respectfully,

Dear CT64,

This thread became useless about three weeks ago. My most humble suggestion to our dear moderator Master Krummhorn is that he should consider locking down this thread.

Humbly,

CD

Dear Corno Dolce

Let me introduce your own expression towards me from a few weeks ago: Are you a bit defensive?

this thread has turned rather nasty I feel, maybe it's come to the end of its useful life?

CT64

Why are you afraid, or rather what are you afraid of CT64?

Democracy, for instance, means freedom of speech and freedom or different opinions.

Don´t worry CT64, Denmark will not invade the USA. It´s against the rules of the United Nations to invade a sovereign member country.

intet-at-tabe, I've been reading your recent comments, and I must say you've hit it spot on! Although I do think America used to be something of a democracy.. maybe a couple hundred years ago, I do agree with you that the Bush administration (or the American people themselves) have singlehandedly turned one of the most beautiful types of governemnt in the history of the world into a corrupt and largely political system. I think it was either Jefferson or Adams who had large reservations about the party system in American politics. I wonder why?

Best,
Mahlon

Dear Mahlon

Whether you are 17 or 64 it does not matter. What matters are that you so obviously have formed an opinion about your country and it´s current corrupt political leadership, and the way your present Republican government within less than 8 years has thrown everything possitive and internationally negociated and approved of agreements, we all in the western world have fought for since the WWII - away.

If you can keep Barack Obama alive through the autumn untill the November 4 election, the USA might be open for reengagement towards democratical solutions and discissions for the better of all Americans equally and everyone else on this planet, that we all share.

Personally, I admire you as a very talented musican, but much more as an American male, who dares to speak his opinion. Not all do, not even here at the MIMF.

So keep on being curious and keep on your independence to have the right to speak your opinions on anything whatsoever, that is the essence of a true democracy.

[intet_at_tabe]

Intet - I'm not afraid in the slightest but your passion for American politics, which seems very one sided (i.e. if one doesn't agree with you he/she is wrong) and I find it frankly quite tedious, repetative and boring.

CT64

You´re wrong, I do not express my personal opinion. I express the opinion of what a democracy is all about living in one of the best functional democracies in the world, not to mention that most of the world outside the USA consider the USA to be the worst risk towards world peace, according to the Lancet (an internationally respected magazine).

Did you know that Time Magazine a few years ago, when they released their yearly poll on who are the most influencial persons in the world today - did not have President George W. Bush Jr. among the 100 most influencial persons in the world.

It has never in the history of this particular poll happened before that a USA President was not among the 100 most influencial persons in the world.

It does make one think, doesn´t it CT64?

Due do a dudicous thought upon ... if you can't say anything nice, keep your mouth shut ... I've now censored my own comment.

CT64

What excactly would be "nice" in your ears according to the current leadership of your country the USA?

Do you remember Barry Goldwater?, considered 40 years ago to be a liberal democrat, who was the first to express: We can´t believe in our own government.

[Krummhorn]

CT64

What excactly would be "nice" in your ears according to the current leadership of your country the USA?

Intet,
Ahem ... CT64 is a resident & citizen of Australia, if I'm not mistaken.

Admittedly, the USA does not have a perfect government system - doubtful that there is any "perfect" government in any society, or everyone would be moving there tomorrow.

Ok ... ok ... We get the point on the deficiencies within the US.

Some of us were born here ... our families are here, and for whatever reason, we have decided to remain citizens of the USA, and like others around the world, we then support our country of choice as is our right to do so. The majority of us pay our taxes and try our best to obey the laws. There are crooked people in every country and every continent in the world ... it shouldn't mean that their government system is broken ...it's life and the way it is, and will remain such until the end of time.

Ok, the above was stated as a forum member. What follows are my comments wearing the regulator cap:

I'm trying to remain third party as much as possible in my comment here, and at the same time regulate the thread. The perception is that this thread has turned into a very biased "discussion" against a certain country.

There are always two very explosive discussion topics in any forum:

1. Politics
2. Religion

Neither topic will ever have any resolution given the wide scope of people from every walk of life in an online forum community. It's best to state your opinion, once, and leave it at that. It's okay to ask questions and to engage in continued conversation about the topic at hand, but trying to convince the other that your way is the only way, and only posting all the things wrong (and nothing good) about a fellow members country of choice, is not what a good discussion is all about.

There are a good number of members (30 to be exact) who have viewed this thread and yet most have chosen not to comment, primarily because it has become extremely biased against one particular country. I think we all have read enough about the USA and it's internal problems - Kindly give it a rest, ok?

[intet_at_tabe]

No problem Mr. Moderator, Master Krummhorn, sir.

[Mahlon]

I'm afraid I love my country too much to give my government a break, but I agree with you on this.

Mahlon

[Mahlon]

70% of European's want Obama to be president,

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rss/redir/http://www-tc.pbs.org/newshour/rss/media/2008/06/12/20080612_foreign28.mp3

I wonder why?

[intet_at_tabe]

70% of European's want Obama to be president,

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rss/redir/http://www-tc.pbs.org/newshour/rss/media/2008/06/12/20080612_foreign28.mp3

I wonder why?

You don´t have to wonder Mahlon

Europe respect it´s friends, and we have been loyal to the USA for 60 years. We do respect the USA to be the only super power, and we do not want this to change. But loyalty and honesty to ones alieds should go both ways, and we do not need American culture in Europe nor be part of the genoside in Iraq, using middle aged methods brought to Iraq from back home the USA, as always denying what the rest of the world can see, though John McCain certainly could while visiting Bagdad.

7 and 1/2 years with the international clown, the none respected and none influencial compulsive liar George W. Bush Jr. in The White House - is more than enough. We have all payed a price much to big, being lured and lied to into this typical performed war against a none existing enemy of us - Iraq.

A 12 year old boy or girl could have done better than Junior, and Barack Obama has a brain for one thing, responsability and has also shown remorse towards the needless killings in Iraq for another reason, and since he seems not to be connected to the Haliburton outfit of selfish Fat Cats like Dick "I almost killed my friend" Cheney and Donald "only a few sour apples" Rumsfeld - which means Obama is not a member of the corrupt league in the US Congresshe.

Barack Obama is the kind of man we in Europe would support. Not to mention he has a well functioning brain, not a guy born with a silver spoon in his mouth, knowing the USA have to get back in line internationally, if the USA understand the words LOYALTY and FRIENDSHIP.

Here´s a link, you may find interesting about the US soldiers, who have been sent to a war to be wasted. Like the 58.000 American soldiers wasted in Vietnam and 2 million vietnames - all for nothing. Since the USA came to fight communism, but finally had to run with their backs to the bullets, being thrown out of Saigon, South Vietnam, while Americans back home were demonstrating afgainst the war in Vietnam. Except of course another "Wag The Dog" war to economically benefit the US military complex, who can only profit by sending young US soldiers, who will never have a life, to war. Like the American journalist Walter Cronkite reported it from the USA provoked Tet-offensive in 1968 in North Vietnam, history as always for the USA military repeats itself:

http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/87235/

[intet_at_tabe]

The world in pictures - week 23





The Democrat Barack Obama applauded by thousands of Americans, when he showed Hillary Clinton the door last week. He looks happy, victorious for all the right reasons, confident in himself and a man of ethics, morals and integrity to bring the USA back to what it used to be, the Great United States of America. That´s why Europe supports Barack Obama propably, if The Lord will, the next President of the United States of America.

[methodistgirl]

For you Oboma fans out there I have a video for you.
YouTube - "I Got a Crush...On Obama" By Obama Girl
judy tooley

[intet_at_tabe]

Segregation and diskrimination in America 2008:

Read this article and you´ll see what it means to be without a job, without a place of their own, with no medical or health insurence in the wealthiest country in the world - The United States of America. 47 million Americans like yourselves are prisoners and slaves of not being able to provide for themselves, because of the lack of social equallity.

Anderson Cooper made this report on how hospitals throughout America dumps ill Americans in skid row, when they don´t have medical insurance:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/05/17/60minutes/main2823079.shtml

Where is the American Dream for these fellow American citizens?




Anderson Cooper Reports On The Practice Known As "Hospital Dumping"

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May 17, 2007

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Paraplegic Gabino Olvera was "dumped" from a Los Angeles hospital. (CBS)







Dumping On Skid Row

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(CBS) The first rule in medicine is: do no harm. But doing harm is precisely what some Los Angeles hospitals are being accused of when it comes to patients who happen to be homeless.

As CNN's Anderson Cooper reports, the claim is that hospitals don’t like dealing with homeless patients, who are often uninsured and sometimes unpleasant to treat. So they literally dump them on the streets of Skid Row, even if the patients come from other places in Los Angeles, and are in no condition to fend for themselves.

While there have been allegations of hospital dumping for years, people only started paying attention to them because of a videotape recorded by a camera outside a homeless shelter.



The tape shows a 63-year-old homeless woman named Carol Ann Reyes wandering in the street. The pictures may seem unremarkable, but the story that goes with it is disturbing. Reyes had just been discharged from Kaiser Permanente Bellflower hospital where, after taking a fall, she had been treated for three days.

The hospital confirms she was put in a taxi and the driver was told to take her to Skid Row. Why was she wearing little more than a hospital gown? Because the hospital admits they had lost her clothes and sent her away without pants or even shoes. They did, however, give her a diaper.

"The cab came this way. He did a u-turn. Pulled around. And stopped. The driver didn't even get out of the car. The back door opened and this little lady got out in her hospital gown," says Rev. Andy Bales, who runs the Union Rescue Mission, the biggest shelter in Skid Row.

Skid Row is a 50 square-block area home to some 11,000 people, with the highest concentration of homeless in the country.

Asked if he was surprised to see Reyes get out of the taxi, Rev. Bales says, "I was stunned and shocked and frozen for a moment. I couldn’t believe my eyes. She was really confused."

She was confused, investigators later found, because she was suffering from dementia. That shouldn't have come as a surprise to Kaiser hospital officials.

Their own medical records show Reyes was disoriented as to time and place. Her speech was slurred, she had extremely high blood pressure, and a persistent cough and fever. Even with these medical problems, they decided to discharge her and sent her to the streets of Skid Row.

"They’re dumping a 62-year-old woman with dementia in the heart of Skid Row? That’s what’s going on. And it’s shocking and it’s criminal," argues Rocky Delgadillo, the Los Angeles City Attorney.

His office is investigating more than 50 cases of alleged homeless dumping on Skid Row. "These may be the perfect victims. Because a homeless individual dumped on Skid Row disappears into the chaos of Skid Row within minutes. It’s hard for us to find them and then get the evidence that we need."

What should hospitals do with homeless patients? The California Health Code requires all hospitals to make "appropriate arrangements for post-hospital care" and for "continuing health-care requirements" before discharging any patient.

Kaiser didn’t do that in Carol Ann Reyes' case, Delgadillo says. She was sent to Skid Row last March without any medication or instructions for follow-up care.

Asked what it's like down there, Delgadillo says, "Cardboard shanties. It’s a dangerous place, both physically, as well as the drug dealers that congregate on Skid Row, gangs that come here to find easy prey."

"Not the kind of place an elderly woman with dementia should be," Cooper remarks.

"No, in fact, if she’d made it around the corner, she might not be with us today," Delgadillo says.

Carol Ann Reyes is with us today because a worker from Bales' mission rescued her from the street. She’s now under the protection of a court-appointed conservator. She suffers from mild dementia and other medical problems. The conservator allowed 60 Minutes to videotape her meeting her lawyer, but not to ask her any questions. Her lawyers have filed suit against Kaiser hospital.

Before she was hospitalized, Reyes had been sleeping in a park, 16 miles away from the crime-ridden streets of Skid Row.

"Sometimes, individuals end up here that are just released from county jail," explains Deputy City Attorney Jose Egurbide, who investigates hospital dumping cases, and showed 60 Minutes around Skid Row.


Continued

[intet_at_tabe]

USA



"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." - Martin Luther King Jr.

A Threat to Justice: Widespread and Persistent Human Rights Abuse in the United States of America




Overview

Police Brutality

• Human Rights Violations on the US-Mexico Border

Abuse of Prisoners

• <LI type=circle>Women in Detention <LI type=circle>Arbitary detention of asylum-seekers
• Super-maximum security

Death Penalty

• Racism and the death penalty

International Context
FAQ

Police brutality. Torture and degradation of prisoners. The execution of innocent people. Violations of basic human rights are taking place over and over again in the United States. Not because such violations are inevitable. And not because no one cares. But because federal and state officials still haven’t taken many of the basic steps necessary to stop the abuse.
The human rights movement is a struggle for justice for everyone, everywhere. Throughout the history of the US, the efforts of ordinary citizens have brought about profound advances in the recognition and protection of fundamental human rights. Just think of the achievements of the civil rights and women’s suffrage movements. But the struggle for justice in the US isn’t over.
In a 1999 report called Rights for All, Amnesty International documents the shocking scope of contemporary human rights violations in the US and outlines the basic reforms that are needed to protect the vulnerable and bring the perpetrators of abuse to justice.These reforms include monitoring excessive use of force by police, limiting the use of inherently dangerous restraint devices and techniques, and prohibiting the execution of children and juvenile offenders. Concerned citizens in the US have called for the broadest possible mobilization of individuals, groups and community organizations to get these reforms on the political agenda.
As Canadians, our lives are deeply entwined with those of our neighbours to the south. This means we have a special obligation to speak out. We also have the potential to make our voices heard when others are silenced.
On this web site, you can learn more about the issues and Amnesty International’s ongoing efforts to confront human rights abuses wherever they take place - even in our own backyards. By carrying out some of the suggested actions highlighted on these pages you can make your voice heard for justice - for everyone, everywhere.
Good neighbours do speak out.
Continue >>

For a country where the unequallity among ordinary Americans seem to be more the rule than the coincidence, I can´t figure out why anyone would leave Canada for the USA. Besides this America spends more tax dollars abroad in the foreign sovereign countries, never a threat to the USA, than it does on Americans in need of help, thinking of the "small" group of 47 million Americans with no regular adress or roof above their heads, forced in to slavery by the American Dream, like most other dreams it has remained a dream for the millions, who live every day in skid row or as ilegal immigrants working for 1/5 of minimum wages.

The Katrina hurricane a couple of years ago, where it took almost a week to organize help, where the Great White Father in Washington DC, President Jr. went on a sponsor trip to support his own re-election, while thousands of his fellow Americans were in desperate need of help, showed everyone in the USA from south to north and the world, where his personal interests as the President lay. President Jr. the anti-climax of a US President, the worst President of the USA due to the history of this former great nation.

The Katrina hurricane that also showed America and the world that caucation white Americans live in skid row too.

That´s just my two cents worth.

[Regulator Edit: Post merged into this one from the thread "Crossing the Border" as it was irrelevant to thread topic and better suited to this closed discussion (and a personal rant against the US or any other country) topic. Offensive graphic removed as well - the verbal descript was sufficient and certainly the point is understood without additional pictorials]

[Krummhorn]

This thread has turned from talking about the 2008 US Election, into an one-sided rant, singling out one country and pointing out all its problems. I think that's enough!!

This thread is now closed.

For what it is worth, I did not close this thread because I am a US Citizen -
I would have taken the same action no matter what country was being constantly singled out like this.