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Thread: Election 08

  1. #1
    Lieutenant Commander, Concertmaster Mahlon's Avatar
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    Election 08

    It's arguably going to be the most historic presidential election year in recent Amerian history, and I was curious what others thougt's are about the candidates. I know politics can be quite a divisive thing, but I'm curious to know what other people think and how they view the state of things. Personally, I believe America rests on the balance in this election. I feel that if Mccain is elected, it will be a further continuation of the horrible policies that the Bush Administration has proposed. Don't get me started on Iraq! That is why I support Barak Obama. I believe he is the perfect candidate for this time in American history. He is genuinely intelligent, unlike some of his fellow running mates, (he taught constitutional law at Chicago University for crying out loud), where as mccain was apparently 894th out of 899 at his millitary school! I grimace when I hear people attemping to slander his candidacy on the basis of racism or fear, claiming that he is a closet muslim and that he will destroy the world. These claims are utterly ridiculous. Can we actually vote based on the "judgement" of the candidates for once? Obama was the one who has been against Iraq from the start, and although he may be a junior senator, I believe he has proven that he has the charisma and the actual Brains needed to be president. He is also willing to listen to the other side, something that the Bushie's aren't very fond of. He truly is a uniter, and we need someone who can unite this country and bring America back from the dead. There, I have done my ranting, I'd like to know what everyone else thinks, I don't mean to adversely affect your views in any way, just tooting my horn. Please, I'd like to know how others on this forum feel.
    Thanks
    Mahlon
    "The purpose of art is not the momentary ejection of adrenaline but the gradual and lifelong construction of a state of wonder and serenity."- Glenn Gould

    http://www.last.fm/music/Mahlon+Berv?autostart

  2. #2
    Administrator Krummhorn's Avatar
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    Nice thread, Mahlon ...

    So appropriate, at least in the US for 2008, that I've added a poll to your thread for an on the spot reaction to the current list of eligible candidates thus far. I've listed them (and the parties) alphabetically so as not show favoritism towards any political party.

    My comments on the 2008 Election:
    Although I believe the time is ripe for electing a woman as President of the US, Hillary is not the one who should fill that positiong ... I think Condi Rice would do far better in the White House than Mrs. Clinton.

    The whole damming thing for me in these elections is all the mud slinging that abounds between the candidates ... few words are spoken about "how great I am for America" - instead the most spoken words are "he/she is an idiot and drinks diet sodas ... etc!" I dropped out of the major political party several years ago just because of that, and registered as Independent - ok, I didn't get to vote in the primaries, but in my mind there was nobody worth voting for.

    Of the candidates running, I believe that Obama will do the best for this nation, but I also know that Democrats are known for diminishing our country's defense budgets, which I am very opposed to, especially with the world in so much turmoil of late.

    This subject matter is certain to be a 'hot potato' for some members - hopefully we can all retain our wits and keep the discussion "on topic" and avoid any flaming wars amongst ourselves.

    [Edit: I've moved this thread into the Open Debate Forum]
    Last edited by Krummhorn; Mar-01-2008 at 00:45.
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  3. #3
    Lieutenant Commander, Concertmaster Mahlon's Avatar
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    Hey Krum, I'm pleased to hear that you are a fellow Obama fan, although I wanted to clarify with you how I feel about the democratic position/Obama's position on the war. Unlike Mccain, he realized that the war was incorrect from the beginning, knowing that from history, when Britain invaded Iraq, it was disastrous. Most imperialist activities end up that way. Obama may cut spending for defense, although I don't know exactly if he would, he would certainly not act on false pretentions, sending our country into a war arguably for political and economic reasons. I believe we went into Iraq to snatch the oil because we can't get enough of that ravishing resource. It is also interesting to note that Cheney, who is likely the mastermind of the entire war, directly stated that if were to invade Iraq it would be a quagmire. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YENbElb5-xY

    I believe that the radical bush republicans have taken away many of our civil liberties, including the right against cruel and unusual punishment, Waterboarding IS torture, our right as Americans to privacy, warantless wiretapping is illegal no matter how you spin it,(the defense is that it protects americans, I believe it has the ability to be abused, we should not have to live in a nation where we fear our own police like they are the gestapo), It is horrendous how the Bushmen convinced us into going into war with Iraq, a country that had NOTHINg to do with the "war on terror" until we sent our troops in their. Mccain recently said he has news for Obama, that there is something called "al qaeda in Iraq", Obama remarked back, "I have news for you McCain, Al Qaeda wouldn't be in Iraq right now if you and Bush hadn't put it in there" which is actually true. Alqaeda formed a base in Iraq after we entered because of increased hatred toward Americans. Do you think us being in their holy land will make the situation better!? What bothers me is a how so many Americans take for granted our relative safety. We cannot sustain ourselves much longer spending billions of dollars in Iraq every week, and losing allies by the hour. In Susan Jacob's book, "The Age of American Unreason", she discusses the misconception that truth is somehow "equidistant from tww points" and that it doesn't matter what evidence one has as long as one is on a certain side.
    I do not believe it is necessary for me to list the scandals that have occured throughout the bush presidency, they are endless.
    Although the most appaling one for me was the ousting of CIA agent Valerie Plame for political reasons.

    I believe Obama can bring America back to a sense of reality. Apparently one in five Americans believe that the sun revolves around the earth, hello! Yes I believe I have thourougly spammed this post, but I feel too strongly about it to remain quiet.
    Thank you

    One last thing, I do believe John Mccain is a hero, but I do not think one should vote on someone just on the basis of their patriotism. There is more dirt on John Mccain than meets the eye. Look up the Keating 5 scandal.
    I can't even vote in the election, I will be 17 in november!! but I still care more than anything.
    "The purpose of art is not the momentary ejection of adrenaline but the gradual and lifelong construction of a state of wonder and serenity."- Glenn Gould

    http://www.last.fm/music/Mahlon+Berv?autostart

  4. #4
    Administrator Krummhorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mahlon View Post
    . . . Yes I believe I have thourougly spammed this post, but I feel too strongly about it to remain quiet.
    Not at all ... expressing ones opinions is why we are all here one this forum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mahlon View Post
    . . . I can't even vote in the election, I will be 17 in november!! but I still care more than anything.
    You know what's really great, is that even though you can't vote in the '08 elections, you have taken such a keen interest in the future of our country at a young age. I wish more young people would take the same initiative - the future of our country is in your hands. At least everyone, regardless of age, can vote in this thread.
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  5. #5
    Vice Admiral Virtuoso rojo's Avatar
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    I have to say, I'm finding the list of candidates refreshing in general. I'm not American, but like most peeps everywhere, I'll be very interested in seeing who wins this...

    Good on you for caring so much, Mahlon.
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  6. #6
    Rear Admiral Appassionata (Ret.) intet_at_tabe's Avatar
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    Mahlon.

    This is not my usual field at the MIMF, but I have to salute you Mahlon on your remarks due to the 2008 election, which will bring the USA either further away from the rest of the western world or closer to us for instance in Europe.

    You seem to have reached a mature understanding of the huge problems created when President Junior and his christian crusadors (100 million americans believe more in the Word than in Darwinism???) promised the western world: "We will invade Iraq, and capture Osama Bin Laden and his Al Queda terrorists and bring them to justice".

    Right!! The problem was obvious from the beginning, for the Bush admin. hitting on a sovereign state never a threat to the USA, without any formal agreement and resolution within the United Nations. In fact the USA supported both Osama Bin Laden and the Taliban in Afghanistan against the Sovjet Union years prior to the staged World Trade Center airplane bombing in 2001 and the USA supported Saddam Hussain in the war against Iran a decade before the first Gulf War, where thousands of american soliders became ill and many died, because they were used for ginnypigs to the CIA produced Agent Orange chemical invented during the disaster and loss of the Vietnam war, where the USA was thrown out of Saigon in 1973 by vietcong farmers wearing sandals riding bicycles.

    Of course the break from the Human Rights and the Geneva convention, introducing torture done by american soldiers on the internet from the Abu Graib prison in Bagdad, did not find any approvements in the rest of the western world. The Guantanamo torture prison - neither, not to mention the international illigal CIA Rendition program, meaning the USA can kidnap any citizen from any country and fly them to either Guantanamo, Cuba or any other bandit state the USA has bribed, where torture is approved of as a tool of enterrorgation.

    Personally, I believe Hilary Clinton would be a disaster for a President - period. She can´t seem to make up her mind, where to stand on issues very important for the USA. For instance the hundreds of thousands middle class americans, who can´t pay the loanes back to the banks, and will lose their houses and homes during 2008. She voted for the invation of the wrong country - Iraq, where Osama Bin Laden or Al Qaeda have never been and Iraq had no terrorism prior to the invation, when President Junior promised the western world to capture him and his Al Qeada terrorists in Iraq. Beside this, she has been supported economicly by the old quard in the democratic party with 125 million dollars for her campain. Money, the contributers certainly want back in promises of Government contracts to benefit the usual corrupt corporate America.

    The republican John McCain has the identity of a typical USA President. War time hero, imprissoned for 5 years in Vietnam while captured by the V.C. farmers, when he parashuted from his destroyed airplane. Victim of torture, one of the reasons he during the Iraq invation all along has voted and spoken against torture. He speaks his case or any political case plain and straight forward. He has a heck of a lot of experience at The Hill in D.C., which could prove good for the next President, but also it could prove to be bad, because of the total chaos within the republican party during the past 8 years on the Hill, because so many republican politicians have been accused of pedophilism, drugs abuse, driving under the influence, embesselment (Tom LeHay) of the indian nations, the Enron and the Haliburton scandales etc.etc. But for the republicans and the question of a republican President, John McCain would obviously be the best and probably only reasonable choice, since the other candidates have retired.

    Barrack Obama, unlike the current President junior in the White House, has BRAINS and an education to prove it as a lawyer. He has something else, which the two other candidates McCain and Hillary Clinton don´t have. He knows that one of the issues most important for the USA on foreing affairs in years to come, will be to bring back the USA as the only super power left on this planet to the negociating tables in the UN and world wide. The USA has lost the confidence of the rest of the western world, while the republican President junior has entered one disaster after the next, moving away from the majority of his fellow americans, lying about his military career, cheated, he has broken more than 750 laws in your USA Constitution and every international agreed deal since the WWII, earsdropping on e-mails, telephones, private homes among the citizens of, what used to be The Great United States of America. Obama has a lot of support, economicly and because of his visions for the USA and has had it all along during his campain, from both republicans and democrats and obviouly the black/coloured poor America, who want a huge change of the USA. Domesticly and abroad. He has been the junior senator from Chicago, Ill. for some years, which means he has some experience at the Hill. But as we all know, segregations and discrimination is still a problem in the USA, and he is a coloured man by birth, which has never been a benefit for any american nor a campaining President.

    I´ll put my money on, what is likely for the USA election, come November 2008 which is McCain or Obama, more than what is most needed for the USA to regain a natural membership of the Human Rights Commision, The Geneva Convention and the U.N. forrums again, not to mention the social problems domesticly in the USA as of 2008 having 47 million poor americans out of almost 300 million americans to live on the streets with no social security or free hospitalisation, with no regular income and 13 million more people from South America not so far naturalised, but south americans, illigaly working people in the USA who has escaped their own countires to become a part of The American Dream.

    If America and americans want to be trusted again abroad it will take time and it will cost America to renegociate certain human issues, which we as democracies must garuantee our own citizens, to be able to call us - a democracy. One always measures the success of a democracy, looking at how well off the poor and needing are?

    According to estimations from well oriented consultans within the oil buisness, americans will have to turn down the heating in your homes in 7 years, another important issue to think of. Another issue you should demand to be removed and thrown away is the republican produced program for the USA "New American Century - The US For Global Supremacy".

    Whatever you guys over the pond decide for, I offer you and I realy hope you´ll to think seriously ahead about, who will be the better President for all americans and the rest of the western world, not whether he/she is a republican or a democrat. Beside this you have an astronomical disasterous deficit on your economy, which will take a lot of work to decrease during the next decades.
    Last edited by intet_at_tabe; Mar-02-2008 at 09:18.
    Best regards,
    intet_at_tabe

  7. #7
    Lieutenant Commander, Concertmaster Mahlon's Avatar
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    intet wow, I applaud you for you insight! thank you so much to everyone who has begun sharing their opinions. Knowing that my European counterparts on average are MUCH more intelligent than the American citizen, a title I am embarassed to carry, it is great to know that Europeans care about what happens in America very deeply. I wouldn't be surprised if they care more than Americans themselves. This is the land of the couch-potato after all. If Mccain wins, and continues the politics of fear and embracal of the ALMIGHty god over actual logic, I will seriously consider moving to another country in the future, because this is our last chance.
    "The purpose of art is not the momentary ejection of adrenaline but the gradual and lifelong construction of a state of wonder and serenity."- Glenn Gould

    http://www.last.fm/music/Mahlon+Berv?autostart

  8. #8
    Captain of Water Music C5Says's Avatar
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    I'm no political analyst. I even hate politics. I just observe, though. And my observations were blogged about here: 911 Incident: Staged By Bush?

    With that observation, there are only 2 types of candidates, it would seem:
    - one that's put there on purpose to win; and
    - one who might win but will soon be assassinated so the first one can sit.

    hmmm... that's sad.
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  9. #9
    Lieutenant Commander, Concertmaster Mahlon's Avatar
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    the state of our nation is worse than I could have ever imagined. That is saying something given what I arleady knew about the Bushies prior to what I have just discovered. If Obama or Hillary loses, America is done for.
    http://www.dhafirtrial.net/2008/02/15/injustice-at-guantanamo-torture-evidence-and-the-military-commissions-act/#more-1440

    "
    The Military Commissions Act contains other provisions that deny the defendants basic due process. It allows a trial to continue in the absence of the accused, places the power to appoint judges in the hands of the Secretary of Defense, permits the introduction of hearsay and evidence obtained without a warrant, and denies the accused the right to see all of the evidence against him. Defense attorneys are not allowed to meet their clients without governmental monitoring, and all of their notes and mail must be handed over to the military." Apparently the constitution is as good as fecal matter to the bush administration. ):

    http://www.dhafirtrial.net/2007/11/24/denial-of-due-process-to-muslims-disgraces-us-all/#more-1272

    http://www.dhafirtrial.net/case-summary/


    http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2008/03/am-i-a-torturer.html

    http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2008/03/department-of-pre-crime.html
    "The purpose of art is not the momentary ejection of adrenaline but the gradual and lifelong construction of a state of wonder and serenity."- Glenn Gould

    http://www.last.fm/music/Mahlon+Berv?autostart

  10. #10
    Lieutenant Commander, Concertmaster Mahlon's Avatar
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    its rather depressing that none of these issues have been reported by so called "respectable" news institutions. Leave it to the lowly free lance journalist to get things right. Whatever happened to due process of law, MY GOD!!!
    "The purpose of art is not the momentary ejection of adrenaline but the gradual and lifelong construction of a state of wonder and serenity."- Glenn Gould

    http://www.last.fm/music/Mahlon+Berv?autostart

  11. #11
    Rear Admiral Appassionata (Ret.) intet_at_tabe's Avatar
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    But like I´ve already stated, I don´t realy need to discuss this issue. I am a foreignor to the USA, and I am not up for the vote in November 2008. But I do wish for you all over the pond, for every young and grown up american, male and female to take a stand as citizens in a democracy - go and put your mark on election day, put your personal mark - your vote where you need to. You can do it without a gunbarrel at the neck.

    60 percent of all american women in the 2000 elections did traditionally not vote. Less than 50 percent of all coloured people in America voted on election day in 2000.

    Though my statements in my former post are current staticstics of the USA from the bottom of the USA society from skid row, you all should take into consideration whether the initiation of the New American Century - The US For Global Supremacy, generated i 1997 by a lot of Neo-Conservatives years before the 9/11, will be good for you all as americans:

    http://www.newamericancentury.org/st...principles.htm

    This political manifest is defined in my best judgement as a historian interested for 35 years as the purest form of fascism (sorry guys). This political program indicates that America for a number of years to keep the leadership of the world (that you have lost during the past 7 years), and to mentain the success of the US foreign buisness affairs and the US military bases in the world, to achieve and maintain the nessesary energy sources for the USA, to increase the USA domination militarely world wide and to secure and implicate to other democratic countries and non-democratic countries "our Amarican way of life" among other essential matters for the USA Neo-Conservatives. Among those Libby, Paul Wolfowitch and Jeb Bush (the brother of President Junior), who signed the program in 1997 with a lot of other known Neo-Conservatives.

    To bring this program to success in reality it means that the american tax-payer will have to submit to a double or even tripple of the taxes for the benefit of the US defence budget, which is not realy a defence, more identical for real for the War office. This increase will be at the cost of any social reforms to improve, where the goal would be to increase the living standards and housing matters for the average hard working american. The americans who after all keep the country running.

    But the main issue in the New American Century program is: If this program will be put in motion submitted to by all american taxpayers, some evil orchestrated disaster of a monsterous giant magnitude has to happen inside America to show all americans that there is a new visual enemy - the enemy called Osama Bin Laden and the Al Qaeda terrorists. A disaster like the one described in this program for The US Global Supremacy in the New American Century would indicate that americans by the thousands would have to be sacrificed for the greater course of the US For Global Supremacy program, like it have been done throughout the history of the world like with Adolf Hitler, Napoleon Bonaparte, Josef Stalin, Zar Peter the Great, Alexander the Great, Attila the Hun, the Romans, Gjengis Khan etc. etc. all of them had the same idea and they imagined the Global Supremacy manifest long before the Neo Concervatives of the USA in 1997.

    Mr. Bjørn Lomborg, who used to be the director of the Danish Invironmental Office, said in his views of what we should all consider about polution for instance: The worst enemy to any country in invironmental risks are wars in generel. We have about 27 current wars in the world today, wars that all of them take hundreds thousands of civilian victims, people with no influence on political matters, but the same people, who work every day and keep out society running. The econimicl results of any war are devastating to any economy in any country. The current wars end any developements in any inolved society and country in the world, both for the oppressed and the agressor, which mean like for the USA that President Junior has removed 17 percent of the budget from the usual federal budget on education to the war office on the Iraq campain. Expences in this current war no one dare to add up. The same war Dick Cheney anticipated would only last 3-4 months?

    A dangerous political discission for many a year ahead for the USA citizens, because the education of the next generation and the next generation and the next..... our children and their children and children will be less educated and less caple of running our own society democraticly and peacefully in respect of one another as americans. The difference between rich and poor in America has never been bigger. The size of non-tax payers in America, the non employed, the ones at the bottom of the USA in skid row if all these social programs have to be cancelled, the american people in generel will suffer worse than anyone can imagine today because of the New American Century program for the elite of the Neo Conservatives to bring America the Global Supremacy.

    So please think hard and careful about the upcoming 2008 elections, and take your right as citizens in a democracy to make a stand and go to put your personal vote on the day. Only this way you can influence the elections, your own and the future of your children. It is your duty as citizens in a democracy - for a better America for all americans and the world outside.
    Last edited by intet_at_tabe; Mar-05-2008 at 08:39.
    Best regards,
    intet_at_tabe

  12. #12
    Rear Admiral Appassionata (Ret.) intet_at_tabe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mahlon View Post
    its rather depressing that none of these issues have been reported by so called "respectable" news institutions. Leave it to the lowly free lance journalist to get things right. Whatever happened to due process of law, MY GOD!!!
    Right Mahlon

    According to the US penal code and US morals of justice, anyone is innocent until proven guilty.

    But how can a prisoner on Guantanamo or elsewhere defend himself without a lawyer present, not even the accusation in writing put forward to the defence, before a trial and conviction?
    Best regards,
    intet_at_tabe

  13. #13
    Admiral of Fugues Contratrombone64's Avatar
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    I'm not Amercian hence don't have an opinion (certainly not one I'd share here). It's a bore because it pollutes our news stories every evening.

  14. #14
    Rear Admiral Appassionata (Ret.) intet_at_tabe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Contratrombone64 View Post
    I'm not Amercian hence don't have an opinion (certainly not one I'd share here). It's a bore because it pollutes our news stories every evening.
    CT64

    You know the US elections are like the English horse race - The Steeplechase Derby. It´s never over before it´s over.

    But it seems my predictions on the Republicans were sober, now John McCain is in the lead and every other Republican candidate has backed down and out of the campaining. Hillary Clinton won some important states like Texas, Rhode Island and Idaho the other day, which bring her back in buisness towards Barrack Obama, though he is in the lead for the Democrats.

    It´s the same as the continued TV soap series some years ago "Dallas" with the slime of slime J.R. and his brother Bobby or worse the later "Dollars" with the Carrington Family a.k.a. John Forsythe and Linda Evans.

    But as they say, if you want to remain borred and stupid turn on your TV. "I´m the slime coming from your TV set", quote Frank Zappa.
    Best regards,
    intet_at_tabe

  15. #15
    Rear Admiral Appassionata (Ret.) intet_at_tabe's Avatar
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    So from now on John McCain have all the time in the world in the USA to prepair his own republican visions of the years 2008 - ?

    While Ms. Hillary Clinton and candidate for the democrats Barrack Obama as well from now on, realy will turn on the mudmachine throwing at each other, like two opposite candidates competing from the same party always do.

    One of them will win throwing the mud and from then on John McCain will start again throwing mud.
    Best regards,
    intet_at_tabe

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