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Bach Passacaglia in c Registration

organist32

New member
Hello;
I am in the process of learning the passacaglia, and wondered if anyone has a simple registration scheme for the variations, possibly involving manual changes more than stop changes, and with of course no use of pistons!
Thanks,
(my 1st post by the way)
 

Krummhorn

Administrator
Staff member
ADMINISTRATOR
Hi organist32 ... Welcome to Magle International Music Forums :wave:

A judicious use of the Crescendo shoe can be a great substitute for the lack of pistons - my church instrument has but 4 generals (electro-pnuematic at that), so I make good use of the crescendo. Having played this organ for 26 years I know exactly when and what stop is 'drawn' completely by 'feel'.
 

Corno Dolce

Admiral Honkenwheezenpooferspieler
Hello organist32,

Welcome aboard the Starship MIMF where everyone is a star. Please do make yourself feel right at home in our small part of the Galaxy and stay for a spell.

Cheers :tiphat::tiphat::tiphat:

Corno Dolce :):):)
 

Contratrombone64

Admiral of Fugues
I would never use a crescendo pedal (shoe??) in Bach, wasn't invented and isn't what he would ever have done. A judicious selection of stops added, yes. But that's just my personal view ...
 

Krummhorn

Administrator
Staff member
ADMINISTRATOR
Although I certainly agree with your statement, CT64, but some of us are not fortunate enough to have instruments with all the implements for making registration changes easier :cry:

When both hands are going different directions in a display of rapid 16th notes, without the aid of pistons (and toe studs) there is no time to pull another stop (or in my case use the rocker tabs), :crazy: which is why I use the crescendo "pedal" (I was always taught 'shoe' ... sorry).

Somehow I don't think JS would mind - and the listener who can't see the console would be none the wiser :rolleyes: :grin:
 

Contratrombone64

Admiral of Fugues
And do you think Bach had a registration helper? Not sure ... likely not. The poor Blacksmith would have been behind the beast pumping the bellows ...

Bach also played on some quite large instruments (Leipzig) so would have had fun with plent of stops to choose from I guess.
 

organist32

New member
I have to say I agree about not using pistons, crescendo pedals or other modern aids when playing Bach; personally, I would only hand register. If there isn't a suitable place for a manual change, or to pull a stop, I think the music doesn't require it. If you have a good sound/registration to start with, there is no need to constantly adjust the colour, as you would in, say, Howells or Franck.
 

tom

New member
Of course, you might also consider the option of playing it without any changes of registration at all, that is, playing on the plenum, principals 8', 4', 2' and mixture or something to that effect in the manuals, and some 16' reed added to (or replacing) the 16' foundation in the pedal, perhaps.

Many find it too one dimensional that way, however, this music is so strong that it really doesn't need help by registration changes to be interesting, actually the opposite might be the consequence. As it is a very difficult piece (but then again, that goes for almost anything he wrote!), it might also be adding to the problems if you have to think about registration as you go.

Then there's the argument of authenticity, I believe scholars would argue that it is indeed that way works of this size was played in those days, plenum throughout. But that is a somewhat tired discussion, and I don't intend to turn this thread into more of that! ;)

Enjoy playing this wonderful work, I know I will when one day I throw myself at it... :D
 

Mush

New member
If you have a programable cresendo pedal, thats best. It was this piece that inspired my to do something completly different. Just remember you saw it here first. Program your 'pp' registration with your cresendo pedal at the half on position, 50%, and add the standard reg increments going on up, with almost tutti at 100%, full open. And here's were it gets weird. Going down from the halfway, 50% position, add more string 8s, then flute 8s, then flute 4s, str4s and at the bottom add some real light 8' reeds. With the cresendo all the way down to 0% you will have all the 8s in the organ and most of the 4s, no 2s and no mutations, it will be fat and slushy. So we have the minimum number of ranks is in the middle, with cranking up being the standard stuff. But backing it off from the middle position, the other direction gives you a different cresendo building up fat foundations. Idealy we want several cresendo pedals, each programmed to color differently as they are rolled on and overlayed. You come up with these things having 340 or so ranks at you disposal.
 

peterharris449

New member
I am always interested in the arguement.... how would bach have played it !!!!

I am sure that if Bach had the advantage of a modern day instrument he would have used its resources to the full, indeed that was his job a lot of the time when testing new instruments.

In my opinion the registration should be amended for each individual organ, to show the music to its best advantage int temrs of clarity, tone colour and excitement, and not be limited by trying to faithfully reproduce the sound Bach created on his particular organ. Why not use the Swell pedal, I cant imagine the A minor fugue for example without it as it aids excitment and tone colour.

I await wails of lament !!!!!! lol
 

Contratrombone64

Admiral of Fugues
Bach, had he been alive, would have LOVED all the huge organs around. Seeing as Leipzig was the one of the biggest he'd seen and it only had one 32' stop. Bach commented that he missed the 32' stops when they weren't on organs he played.

Imagine his stupor if he's seen Sydney Town Hall, or worse, the Wannamaker monster! He would have played for 24 hours solidly, I'm sure.
 

peterharris449

New member
One wonders whether he would have still been baroque or would have turned more romantic/ orchestral in his writing with the wannamaker organ ?
 

tom

New member
An interesting point is that Bach was indeed considered to be old fashioned in his later days, when the lighter wiener classical style was becoming popular and fugues and the like was going out of fashion, so to speak. I think my point is that Bach, like any other composer, was a product of his time, and the question whether or not he would be more of a romantic composer is completely superflous, as the romantic period was a consequence of the classical period, which for its part was a reaction to the baroque period.

I do understand people who like to make the passacaglia (and the fugue, too, for that matter) a crescendo/diminuendo/crescendo-piece, it's often the very nature of this musical form. To my ears, though, that effect has been thought of by Bach himself, and he more or less creates those effects without the use of registration. The best examples are the middle part with the arpeggios, the texture gets thinner and thinner to the point of almost disappearance of the music!, and the extra voice being added in the end of the passacaglia, going from 4 to 5 voices, which creates an elegant and definitely audible crescendo effect. However, subtleties like the mentioned might be overheard if the player tries to help the music on its way by means of registration changes and swell pedal overuse , possibly GETTING in the way of it.

My two (or that would be four now) cents! :p
 
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Contratrombone64

Admiral of Fugues
tom - maybe fugues were going out of fashion because composer lacked the talent to bring them off with the flair of Bach.

As to Bach being alive today, of course he'd be a modern, or a romantic had he been born in the 18th century.
 
I can't imagine the expression in Bach's face, standing in front of a great "monster" as many organs in the world today, and I agree with contratrombone64 saying that, probably, could play 24 hours without stop!?!
Dear Tom, I also am studying the Passacaglia, and, like you do, the problem for me is still the registration!?! I heard a friend playing it with mixtures in all manuals and 16' and 8' reeds on the pedal from the beginning to the end...:I'm sorry for people who likes to play the Passacaglia in this way, but... IT'S a LITTLE BORING!?!!! It's true: the continous crescendo you can see reading the pages of this piece of Bach, couldn't need, may be, of changes: infact, Bach at his time, had two or three manuals orgnas, in which he could make two or three different "sound levels" even with mixture in both of them. The diapason of each manual's principals and mixture was very different from the others, giving different levels of "pleno". And that's the first possibility you have!
Bach also loved so much the "gravitat" of the 32 foot.. a rare stop at his time!!!
But try.. to think at Passacaglia as a continous SOLO theme..you hear fist in pedal and then bouncing from a voice to another...
If I could have a 32' stop in my organ, I surely would begin the pedal theme with it, and with a deep 16'...and on the manual, a Principal 8'.. giving precision (but always soft than pedal theme playing) to the chords!!!

Manuel
 

acc

Member
I agree that playing all 20 variations with no diversity whatsoever is dull and boring.

But while changing stops is one way to introduce diversity, it is not the only way. There are other ways: changing manuals has already been mentioned. Changing touch and articulation is yet another.

Look at the last four variations, for example. The first of the four, with those ternary scales running up and down, is still fairly "light". The second one introduces a third voice, with parallel sixths on the first two beats and a chord on the third, while the pedal becomes somewhat lighter. The third variation keeps the three voices in the manuals, but with two notes held on each beat instead of just one, and the pedal becoming legato again. And the final variation introduces a fourth voice in the manual, now with parallel sixths alternatively on sprano-bass and on alto-tenor.

So you see that Bach already puts a crescendo effect in his writing, by making it denser and denser. Therefore I believe that one can do something interesting without stop changes, if one puts Bach's writing to one's advantage (say, by underlining the changes in density through corresponding changes in articulation).

I'm not opposed to stop changes per se, but I do think that they should be subordinate to the general structure of the piece. In a work such as the Passacaglia, it is easy to get carried away and turn frequent stop changes into a Klangfarbenmalerei that risks drawing more attention to itself than to the music it is supposed to serve.

Note that this view is by no means part of any kind of “baroque vs. romantic” way of thinking: wasn't it Widor who told his students “No magic lanterns, if you please!”
 
I thank you ACC! I never took in consideration the change of touch or articolation yet!?!
May be, because I play on an electro-pneumatic organ and in the church, more than 10 seconds of reverberation and a half dome in the apse influence the sound so badly. The only way I have to feel a little change to the listener, is by drawing on or down a stop!!!
Few second of reverb are a treasure, because they get the sound amalgamate, but too much reverb, strengthens too the "foundamental" harmonic of a sound, and so it's difficult to hear clearly every note and its articulation!?!
But fortunately, I sometimes go in a little chirch, with a mechanical-tracker action: the next time, I'll try to play the Passacaglia without changing stops but changing articulation!!!

Have a nice day!
Manuel
 
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