Criminal Punishment - Your Thoughts

[Andrew Roussak]

Up-Date on Josef Fritzl, the respected Austrian stand up citizen from the small city of Amstetten, who kept his children, victimised imprisoned since 1984 in a 60 square metres basement, with two almost 600 pounds steel doors.

The basement had three rooms, one for washing clothes with no door to one for making food also with a lavatory and both shower and a washing zink, two bed rooms the biggest with a TV set. No light of day ever entered the basement.

The thousands of questions raised already can not be answered. Like how did he manage to bring food for so many people for so many years without anyone in the same city knew about it? How did he manage to bring 7 children to life in a basement, his own daughter being the mother? How did he alone bring the two almost 600 pounds steel doors to the basement? How can his wife say, she knew nothing while being married to the bastard? One child out of the seven died early on. Where did Josef Fritzl get rid of the body? How can such an incredible evil event take place without anyone at all knowing of it?

Rumours say, he was actually suspected in the mid 1990´s on sexual abuse of another child not his own, not living in the basement. Rumours say he went to Thailand in 2001 for a 14 days holidays, who took care of everything then?

Three of the girls he fathered were going to a public school and were alowed to be upstairs during the day. Why didn´t any of these three girls contact a teacher or the Police for help for their sisters and brothers down the basement? At the public school female school friends say they were happy like the rest of the teenage girls in the school.

The whole disclosure of this pedophile bastard came, when one of the daughters had to be hospitalised. Her skin was almost transparent from the lack of sunshine and light itself.

Not many years ago another pedophile scandale shook another small city in Austria, when the girl Natacha Kampusch escaped from her 6 years imprisonment, also the victim of sexual abuse from another stand up citizen in Austria.

First off I wanted to join Intet-at-tabe on this matter - in Germany this issue is a bomb now, and all these questions are a mistery as well as many others, rather practical - how did he managed to build this prison ( alone ??? ) unnoticed by his own neighbours; think only of the masses of ground needed to be transported , etc.

Concerning a death penalty in this case, as well as in many others.

Incest is concerned by us , people, as smth. ugly, whereas in an animal world it is a normal thing. I guess it was not considered a crime in some barbaric societies, until people had realised that on this way they can only produce monsters ( due to similar genes or whatever it is ). So, incest is restricted - by law and moral - in any civilised society. This norm is planted now so deep in us, that even thought of incest is ugly.

But Herr Fritzl is a citizen of a very civilised country, and had somehow managed it, to jump over this norm. Killing him would bring nothing - he must be imprisoned for life and studied - and this is exactly what Austrians will do, I believe. On this way people can learn, what is going on in the crooked brains of these guys, and maybe prevent some other cases.

[intet_at_tabe]

First off I wanted to join Intet-at-tabe on this matter - in Germany this issue is a bomb now, and all these questions are a mistery as well as many others, rather practical - how did he managed to build this prison ( alone ??? ) unnoticed by his own neighbours; think only of the masses of ground needed to be transported , etc.

Concerning a death penalty in this case, as well as in many others.

Incest is concerned by us , people, as smth. ugly, whereas in an animal world it is a normal thing. I guess it was not considered a crime in some barbaric societies, until people had realised that on this way they can only produce monsters ( due to similar genes or whatever it is ). So, incest is restricted - by law and moral - in any civilised society. This norm is planted now so deep in us, that even thought of incest is ugly.

But Herr Fritzl is a citizen of a very civilised country, and had somehow managed it, to jump over this norm. Killing him would bring nothing - he must be imprisoned for life and studied - and this is exactly what Austrians will do, I believe. On this way people can learn, what is going on in the crooked brains of these guys, and maybe prevent some other cases.

Thank you Andrew.

For all of you MIMF´s, check this site about the typical warning signs:

http://www.stopitnow.com/warnings.html#adolescent

which caring adults all over the planet should be aware of.

[methodistgirl]

The next thing I question on this. How did he take care of the labor and
birth of these children she had. What did he do with the afterbirth?
That would have to show up in society sooner or later.
judy tooley

[Andrew Roussak]

Kills two birds with one stone in my opinion - criminals actually do work (so we are not just paying for them to chill, watch tv, and go to gym everyday), and the society benefits economically! Let them build buildings, clean roads, plant trees/food, whatever it is! Result? Stronger economy and healthier society

Ah, Muza, yes, such system had already worked pretty well!! It took place in the Stalin's USSR and was known as GULAG. First part of the tale was - the hard labour corrects ( it did not ), and the second problem - the economy using something like the slave's labour is , pityfully in this case, uneffective. Yep...

For a death penalty - I don't think it is , generally, a solution.

As I guess all of us here would normally learn about the crimes from TV, newspapers , internet etc. When camera gets closer - it makes you feel faint. Surely our first reaction - this or that bastard deserves a death penalty. And surely he does.

But there are lots of people who must actually go through this dirt and blood - police officers, judges, lawyers... law makers...Who are much closer to the subject and who, more or less, influence the present laws. Still - no death penalties in EU.

Well, I guess Europe now is one of the safest places in the world, and the laws and penalties are relatively soft here. Which makes me think, it is NOT THE FEAR OF THE PUNISHMENT WHAT PREVENTS CRIMES.

Surely the prisons must not look like resorts - it must be a place where a criminal would never ever want to return. But it's kinda another problem.

Btw, a bit more to it - when I watch some Hollywood pictures in which gangsters are depicted like "cool guys" or like, I have to think that something goes wrong in US society...

[Muza]

Andrew, the idea of labor (doesnt need to be hard labor, just any labor) in my mind is not to reshape and correct a man. I dont think that they can be corrected in most cases. The idea is first of all - to get them off the street where they can potentially hurt someone else (and they will), and second of all, once you got them out of the civilized society, let them repay their debt to society.

Cant do the time, dont do the crime!

And dont forget, Germany and US are facing very very different problems which are in no way to be tackled by the same approach. I think those should be factored in for a best solution. And the solution mentioned above WOULD take care of more than one problem at once.

And by the way - when you said the prison should be the place one would not want to return to -- well, it should rather be a place one wouldnt want to go in in the first place!!!!!!!!!!

[intet_at_tabe]

Just one more entry. I said earlier today that all pedophiles are victims of sexual abuse as former children, themselves. That is the truth, scientificly researched and proved.

However it does not mean that all sexual abused former children evolve to be pedophiles.

A research done by a Danish organisation called: Red Barnet (in English: Save The Child) show that around 8-10 percent of all sexual abused former children, as adult males evolve to have sexual fantasies about children, and 5-7 percent end up acting on it towards a victim, and finally end up in our courts in Denmark - If caught?

For women, the former girls the percent is a bit less. 4-6 percent of all sexual abused former girls end up as possible adult pedophiles. I haven´t heard of so far any woman being incarserated due to a trial of pedophilism in Denmark.

Also the question whether it´s a genetic foult? Most scientist and researchers, among those psychiatrists say: No - It´s a culturel and social perversion, since not all former children evolve to be pedophiles.

Do you guys know that many female prostitutes in our western wealthy societies, who sell their body for green bills every day, also called - working girls - or escorts, have been victims of sexual abuse as girls on the domestic front within the family? The so called Happy Prostitute is an expression given by customers, to decrease their own bad conscience due to their physical needs.

Children underaged as 3, 7 or 12 years of age are not evolved physically, nor mentally, nor educationally to have sex. That´s why we call them "underaged" or children due to the penal code in each our western democratical countries, and that´s why we as parents always must be alert that our children are safe. That´s why we are called parents.

To have sex means, in the sense we as adults look at it taught to us by parents, the school and by our societies, as a free choice, a conselsual deal/an agreement between two (at least) adults to have sex with each other. No child can decide for this, and no child should ever be confronted with this situation.

But still IMHO don´t take the life of one of these adult pedophile bastards as a revenge, that is not punishment in this kind of crime IMHO. The pedophile, who think and worse act like he/she is God.

Let´s keep these bastards, whether rich or poor, white or black, brown, yellow or any other color behind bars eighteen feet under, isolated for scientific research without any whatsoever chance of parole - perhaps even without natural light, like the six imprisoned sexual abused children in Austria.

[Muza]

Wow, you guys must really have a lot of pedophile crime going on - it seems to be a really big part of your criminal . I mean we do too, and lately there has been a lot of accusations directed at Church, but not as much to be made into a center issue.

Even if these sickos are researched for all eternity, i dont see how that would be helpful in preventing other pedophiles.

[Andrew Roussak]

Andrew, the idea of labor (doesnt need to be hard labor, just any labor) in my mind is not to reshape and correct a man. I dont think that they can be corrected in most cases. The idea is first of all - to get them off the street where they can potentially hurt someone else (and they will), and second of all, once you got them out of the civilized society, let them repay their debt to society.

Cant do the time, dont do the crime!

And dont forget, Germany and US are facing very very different problems which are in no way to be tackled by the same approach. I think those should be factored in for a best solution. And the solution mentioned above WOULD take care of more than one problem at once.

And by the way - when you said the prison should be the place one would not want to return to -- well, it should rather be a place one wouldnt want to go in in the first place!!!!!!!!!!

Well, sure, Musa, I agree. That was a sad joke about GULAG , never mind...Just could not pass by without such an analogy.

What would I still say , rather generally . Can you answer, what prevents you - personally you - well, or anybody else reading this on MIMF - from commiting a crime? Surely not fear of a punishment?

There are moral norms in any society, which most of the people ( thanks God! ) would accept and follow - without even thinking about it. And some members of the society, having various psychological problems, would not - these are criminals. I believe that society can prevent ( it does, actually ) many crimes on its very early stage, because to prevent is always better than to correct.

But, when I see George Clooney playing a cool gangster ( Ocean's Eleven ....you know ), or killer PC-games being sold in any supermarket - I would say, the society does its best to produce criminals itself.

[Muza]

I absolutely agree about Hollywood and mass media being a big part in making crime look cool and all, and that is also a problem.

And I absolutely agree that its not fear of punishment that stops me and a lot of other people from doing the crime, there are mental boundaries, morale, education, good parental upbringing - basically values.
And I'll even go so far as saying this - not all criminals are bad in nature, but as soon as they have crossed this mental and moral value (could have been in war, in hunting, self-defense purposes), it makes it so much easier to do that again. And once they have committed a crime, it becomes more of a mental pleasure for most, which makes them dangerous for surrounding people.

So punishment is not the core center of criminal system in my head - the core center should be alienating those dangerous people from the rest. That just happens to be punishment at the same time for them.
Another big part of it, theoretically and philosophically speaking, is repaying this debt to society and to the victim in particular, restoring that balance which they have messed with, that naturally protected right of safety that they took upon themselves to brake. They cant just do the crime, and then be left alone - they have to pay in some way. In some cases its restitution to the victim, but in the rest, where the crime is too vicious for restitution, they have to make up for it in some other way. And I think that they should give back to society in whatever way they can - hence my suggestion of labor in prison.
Because otherwise, prisons in my opinion are just a waste of money - because they dont correct the prisoners in most cases, and the prisoner gets to get out in most cases. So really - there is no removing of dangerous criminals from society, and there is no repaying of debt, because sitting in prison is nothing just by itself.

That was long, so I hope my point made sense.

[marval]

Well here in the UK the punishment is farcical. They lock them up in a prison, about as good as a holiday camp. Now they are letting hardened criminals out of prison because of overcrowding. The prisons have all mod cons,televisions and even gyms.

Some reports say that people offend again just to go back in prison. Drugs are commonplace, it seems the prison warders turn a blind eye. What deterrent is that, the punishmment is way too soft.

One of the worst things is that paedophiles and rapists are let out to live where they were before, sometimes opposite a school, and in one case next door to his victim (she had to move.) As far as I am concerned that is disgraceful.

As for capital punishment, I am can understand people wanting it, but that is the easy way out for the criminal. They should have to suffer for the rest of their lives, after all their victims, or victims families do. And there must be a 100% certainty that they have the right person.

As for the Austrian case, it defies belief, how could he have got away with it. I find it impossible to believe that his wife did not know. I can only hope that the ones rescued will be alright.


Margaret

[Contratrombone64]

Margaret, you're right about that Austrian chap, his wife must have known. I predicte that it will all be revealed in the near future as the story unfolds.

[marval]

Hi CT

I think you are right, how can wives not know.

In the UK we had the Yorkshire ripper, who killed women, mostly prostitues, his wife said I didn't know it was him. I suppose it was just coincidence that he was out at the time the murders happened, and that he looked like the E-fit.

Also we had Dr.Harold Shipman who killed many of his patients, his wife bleated that it wasn't him and she didn't know.


Margaret

[Muza]

I think some know, but are too afraid to say, or are just as perverted. And some have some sort of denial going on, when they dont want to know, so they dont.

Yes Margaret - thats whats scary, the prisons are terrible and the criminals get out anyways. Unacceptable!

[methodistgirl]

I will tell you how they handle crime here in Kentucky. I got in trouble
for writing a bad check and they kept me in jail for a year and a drunk
just got 90 days as well as someone on dope. Now tell which one
should get the lighter sentence.
judy tooley

[Muza]

Yeah, I feel you Judy - we are one messed up society!