Criminal Punishment - Your Thoughts

[intet_at_tabe]

Andrew

You asked the question: "..... how did he managed to build this prison ( alone ??? ) unnoticed by his own neighbours; think only of the masses of ground needed to be transported , etc.".

The latest up-date is equal to my historical knowledge of Austria in the beginning of 1980´s. During the Cold War, both Americans and lots of other people in the west, actually built bomb shelters post the Cuban crises, like huge basements where they would be safe for weeks perhaps even months.

It seems that Josef Fritzl had acknowledgement from the local community in Amstetten to built the basement for everyone to see in 1983, one year ahead - obviously now we all know for different reasons.

About how he managed for food for so many people for so many years? It seem none of the local shops in the city of Amstetten, one market actually less than half a mile from his house, did not know of him at all, after whatching him on the telly due to the arrest and his admittence of guilt. He simply took his car and bought the food and whatever needed in the near by villages, surrounding Amstetten.

About his wife and her statement: "I did not know". The most reasonable or likely answer at this point in time of the investigations - would be the total denial and embarrassement of this whole evil ordeal now publicised throughout the entire world. But it is not uncommon according to a Danish psychiatrist, that the family often are forced to keep their mouths shut. Like the victims often are threaten to silence, for instance threats of brothers and sisters to be killed, or a victim him or herself - if "You tell and share our secret with others outside the family".

[marval]

We had a couple here, called Fred and Rose West where the husband had raped and killed women. including his own daughter.

Rose said she knew nothing about it, she played dumb. It turned out she was just as bad as he was. Enticing women back to their house, and giving them cups of tea.

Fred hanged himself in jail, Rose now lives a better life in jail than some poor innocent people.


Margaret

[methodistgirl]

I've heard of that happening in a lot of places which makes me sick.
The same goes on here in the United States and all over the world.
I knew of something here simular. I'm not going to mention their
names because I forgot it. On the other extreme sometimes if the
parents discipline a child and they are poor the parents get in trouble
in a hurry with the child welfare when some rich family does a whole
worse to their child with abuse they get by with it. I don't see any
fairness in that either.
judy tooley

[Krummhorn]

I believe there is one Sheriff in Arizona named Joe Arpaio who runs a prison where the inmates sleep in tents surrounded by high electric fences topped with razor-bladed concertina wire. No A/C, Internet, T.V. and other creature comforts.

Hi Corno Dolce,

Yes, it's true ... up in Maricopa County (closer to Phoenix), this controversial Sheriff has certainly made a name for himself and how he runs his jail. There is lots more in this wikipedia article on Sheriff Joe Arpaio. Although I had heard of him, there were things in the article that I was not aware of. I think this Sheriff has got the right idea.

[methodistgirl]

He had the right idea on crime.
judy tooley

[Krummhorn]

Indeed ... still has the right idea ... Here's an interesting video about one man who IS making a difference ...

+ YouTube Video

[intet_at_tabe]

Indeed ... still has the right idea ... Here's an interesting video about one man who IS making a difference ...

+ YouTube Video

Master Krummhorn

I saw this on Danish TV some time ago, only I thought the Sheriff was from Texas?

Do you have any idea, to how the ULCA has reacted to this chain gang philosophy?

As the film shows, it´s been done before back to former centuries within the correction system in the south in the history of the USA. How has the state correction system reacted?

But I guess they have their own american footbal team, who plays against other inmates from different cities?

[Corno Dolce]

Hello Intet,

Its not only in the South that they've had chain-gangs but also in the North. The use of chain-gangs in the South brought back "institutional" memory about chain-gangs used by slave owners. So of course there are many politicians who are squeamish about reinstituting chain-gangs for fear of being labeled as racist. I believe Sheriff Joe Arpaio is of Mexican descent so its not so easy for ACLU to label him as racist.

Cheers,

CD

[methodistgirl]

I just got a wake up call with that video. Teenagers including some
who are now in their twenties. Some of them have a stinking attitude
here in Kentucky. I know of one girl who was my husband's niece who
would give you a cussing if you looked at her wrong and if her mother
did any dicipline to make her streighten up she would go to authorities
to get her mother in trouble over it. She wound up pregnant by the
time she was just 14 years old. I just turned 40 myself and I threw
one buckager of a fit. I knew if I had done that my parents would
have taken the roof off the house. Believe me I wouldn't have blamed
them one bit. His niece wound up having to get married in a hurry
like a shotgun wedding. I was bawling my eyes out over what she
did and her boyfriend. Now he abuses her and they wound up having
four kids which everyone of them got taken away by the law over
the way they were treated.
judy tooley

[Andrew Roussak]

About his wife and her statement: "I did not know". The most reasonable or likely answer at this point in time of the investigations - would be the total denial and embarrassement of this whole evil ordeal now publicised throughout the entire world. But it is not uncommon according to a Danish psychiatrist, that the family often are forced to keep their mouths shut. Like the victims often are threaten to silence, for instance threats of brothers and sisters to be killed, or a victim him or herself - if "You tell and share our secret with others outside the family".

Thanks, Intet-at-tabe -

ok, let's see. Here in Germany you can not escape it anyway - they are sending the updates on all channels.

The latest thing I have heard concerning mother today was that she had really seen her daughter these days for the first time after 24 years, as the latter was reported missing by Herr Fritzl . Almost impossible to believe, though. Could she play the scene - before reporters, cameras, experts, police officers?

Then, as a part of a family , you have to be normally aware of the family budget . Could Herr Fritzl conceal from her wife the expences needed to keep
his secret family alive - and that for 24 years?

Well, surely we will know about it all, I can not somehow imagine that his wife really "had no idea".

[Andrew Roussak]

Because otherwise, prisons in my opinion are just a waste of money - because they dont correct the prisoners in most cases, and the prisoner gets to get out in most cases. So really - there is no removing of dangerous criminals from society, and there is no repaying of debt, because sitting in prison is nothing just by itself.

That was long, so I hope my point made sense.

Thanks , Musa - yep, absolutely!

Regards
Andrew

[Mat]

Like they would say to a judge: "I was abused and sexual melasted as a child, no one helped me or showed it was prohibitted, so I repeat it to someone else, should be Okay?".

When I hear an explanation like this I just can't stop myself form throwing something to hit the TV.

The case of this man (well, this word's still to much, imho, to describe him) is also present in Polish media.

I'm not really sure if your idea, Intet, to keep people like this 18 feet under is good choice. I mean, we, the paxpayers, have to cover some of the costs, right? And do we want to pay for this? Noo. At least not me.

From the other hand, pedophiles are not very 'popular' among other prisoners. They are at (one of) the lowest position in prison hierarchy, which is not a surprise to me.

There sure are lots of problems that prison system have to deal with. For example overcrowded cells. There are a lot of people, who are convicted for small-scale crimes (with low social harmfullness level; didn't know how to translate it from Polish). And they are kept in prison unnecessarily, while they can be controlled outside the prison.

And Krummhorn also metioned important issue.

Locally, the prisoners have too many resources made available to them. They have TV, internet, 3 square meals a day, access to library resources (some have learned enough about law to defend themselves in a trial), live in air conditioned/heated cells, etc etc.

This really gets me mad. Looks like some of the prisoners have better living conditions than some innocent people... And then I think is this real punishment for them to live in cells like that? Did they deserve that? Hell no.

[Krummhorn]

...Oohhh, this is one heck of a great discussion ...

I agree, Mat.

And who pays for all those creature comforts? Yup, the general public through taxation, whether or not we agree. I really think Sheriff Joe Arpaio is on the right track, and apparently the only sheriff in Arizona who is upholding the written laws. Granted, most of his arrests deal with immigrants, but if more counties adopted his way, it would really take a huge bite out of crime, or at the least be a deterrent.

Apparently, the people in Maricopa county agree with Sheriff Arpaio's approach, as he has been re-elected every four years since 1992. He's going for a 5th term this year.

The ACLU keeps pointing out "cruel and unusual punishment" for prisoners living in tents and without the other luxuries of life. I wonder what part of the crime the ACLU doesn't consider "cruel" and/or "unusual" when the victim is murdered or brutally injured and maimed for life. Seems the ACLU is contradicting itself, at least, imho.

[Contratrombone64]

I'm a firm believer that prisoners must be given at least ADSL internet, conjugal visits weekly, cell phones, performance artists and anything they wish ... in their dreams!

[Krummhorn]

ADSL? Nah, dial-up with AOL - that would be a nightmare