Criminal Punishment - Your Thoughts

[Muza]

Thanks Guys, particularly Andrew and Intet for your responses

Yep, looks like we all agree on the most important thing - the sentences are ridiculously light and not only dont fit the crime, but dont fit anything! 2.5 years for that 'pedagogue' is nothing short of injust, a mockery of victimized children, and totally useless. And Fritzl, who thretened his family of poisoning them with gas if anything should happen to him, should be killed with a lethal injection himself - for the sake of irony!!!

I see Europe's reasoning on death penalty, but it certainly seems like Europe is taking it way way to far. First - lets be humane and not kill them, now - give ridiculous sentences. I dont know what the reasoning for lighter sentences is. Do you guys know?

Anyhow, back to the death penalty. I see the point. But many of you have also said - death penalty is not good not for the sole reasons of being inhumane, but for reasons of being too easy - an easy way out for criminals who committed horrible crimes. Many of you have said - let them be locked up till the rest of their lives so that they know, so that they suffer.
Philosophically speaking, and playing devils advocate a little bit - isnt that a more inhumane thing to do?

P.S. I am certainly not advocating for all criminals to be killed, but some - with pleasure!

[methodistgirl]

I totaly agree with this one. I would do like the indians did if someone
broke the law. That ment torture and death.
judy tooley

[intet_at_tabe]

Thanks Guys, particularly Andrew and Intet for your responses

Yep, looks like we all agree on the most important thing - the sentences are ridiculously light and not only dont fit the crime, but dont fit anything! 2.5 years for that 'pedagogue' is nothing short of injust, a mockery of victimized children, and totally useless. And Fritzl, who thretened his family of poisoning them with gas if anything should happen to him, should be killed with a lethal injection himself - for the sake of irony!!!

I see Europe's reasoning on death penalty, but it certainly seems like Europe is taking it way way to far. First - lets be humane and not kill them, now - give ridiculous sentences. I dont know what the reasoning for lighter sentences is. Do you guys know?

Anyhow, back to the death penalty. I see the point. But many of you have also said - death penalty is not good not for the sole reasons of being inhumane, but for reasons of being too easy - an easy way out for criminals who committed horrible crimes. Many of you have said - let them be locked up till the rest of their lives so that they know, so that they suffer.
Philosophically speaking, and playing devils advocate a little bit - isnt that a more inhumane thing to do?

P.S. I am certainly not advocating for all criminals to be killed, but some - with pleasure!

Muza dear

Thank You, I say. Now this could look as if I got my head in another jam here, towards your most logical question above. But not really.

Both as a European, and I personally believe in The Human Rights, I have supported these Human Rights for all people, since I was seventeen at the same time with another hat on favourising Mr. Arpaio in Arizona on his chain-gang system for prisoners and yet another hat thirdly to wish for a monster to suffer for the rest of his life isolated from the world. with minutes on end to think.

I am with you Muza dear. I understand your question.

Well, it´s easy. As a human being, I am only me with my not typical Danish or European opinions. I have seen to much, sorry the expression, crap and manipulation among the dignatars of the EU center, down Brussels.

As a European, I support the mentioned rules for the EU and The Human Rights. Did you know Denmark is still no member of the common Euro coin?

As a poster here at the MIMF, reminding myself that US Justice is very different from Danish or European Justice, not nessesarely worse or better, but definitely different. I look at your Constitution for instance and on your Justice Department. I consider how good american Presidents and each their Governments are to keep the same laws and rules as every other American are demanded to do. I look at your historicly evolvement over let´s say 400 years, on more complexed historical knowledge known from other former US prisons. I look to your all the time increasing crime rate, and that more Americans find it reasonable to own a private gun. And so on and so forth. Not to mention your American culture, your incredibly beautiful country and millions of people who show geat hospitability and are this worlds best marketing people. I look at your more fundamentalistic way of Christianity than I was brought up with, your social relations among Americans. I try to understand, accept and respect and implement your typical American way of thinking - born in the best country in the world - however with an increasing group of Americans with no chance at all, no social accept from the ordinary hard working America. I have always loved your country like most Europeans do, but I also fear the USA like most Europeans are beginning to.

I know your political system rather well within D.C. again very diferent to Denmark, but not that much to the EU. Both political centres where huge important discissions are made - a true center of constant energy always moving ahead.

But with child abusers pedophiles who only go for children. Absolutely. IMHO they have to suffer long years of isolation, having really really good time to think, nothing else. Except to be studied by psychiatrist and other relavent personal, who now controle him. Excactly the kind of isolation Herr Josef Fritzl - brought upon his own family, threatend to be gassed, raped and controled on very few square metres for at least 24 years - in desperation at first, but later in apathy disillutioned accepting, and all the time frightend to their bones.

Can you imagine his own daughter having to watch her own children, one died and were burned, grow up in a basement, with no sunshine, no natural light, none whatsoever opportunity to have the life of a child, as we know it. To play and laugh, play with dolls or go to the sandbox. To see nature as we know it, to look at the swans in the lake to have friends over for tea in the cups of dolls. To have a birthday with cake and presents and singing with school friends, to meet her first boyfriend, to be the cheerleader etc.etc.

You may call me cruel, but we´re talking of children imprissoned for 24 years with no one in the neighbourhood or in the world outside to look for them, they could only watch on TV or listen to the radio, what the rest of us take for natural, with Herr Josef Fritzl´s own wife knowing about it, and yet.........

Death is too easy in this kind of inhuman behaviour, perhaps because I still can´t understand or accept within me, that another man can perform what he did, it´s beyond my believe of human behaviour.

Respectfully,

[Muza]

Oh I absolutely agree - i think he should suffer, suffer, and then suffer some more. But then dont tell me (I dont mean you dont tell me, but just in general), that you are excluding death penalty because it is too harsh and not up to human standards.

You see my point right?

Moving on - I came along quite an umm..., interesting so to speak, article which posed a question - Why this crime, why in Austria? Answer given - World War II.

I have certain feelings about that answer, but I would really love to hear your guys thoughts on that.

[intet_at_tabe]

Oh I absolutely agree - i think he should suffer, suffer, and then suffer some more. But then dont tell me (I dont mean you dont tell me, but just in general), that you are excluding death penalty because it is too harsh and not up to human standards.

You see my point right?

Moving on - I came along quite an umm..., interesting so to speak, article which posed a question - Why this crime, why in Austria? Answer given - World War II.

I have certain feelings about that answer, but I would really love to hear your guys thoughts on that.

Muza dear

I do see your point from the eye of the beholder from where you sit. I never said the death penalty was to harsh, in fact IMHO to easy a way out, or against human standards anywhere world wide in the world we are all citizens in.

I only said the death penalty is not up to the standards of the international approved of Human Rights of principles for all free men, to which I believe in and support.

Sorry Muza dear, I can´t get any closer to it.

[Muza]

No no, I heard you Thats why I was trying to note in the parenthesis that my comment was not directed at you personally, it was directed at that rule in general.
By saying "dont tell me...." I wasnt talking directly to you, but rather to the internationally approved standards of human rights.

Anyhow, moving on - I would love to hear your insights about that WWII comment. What do you think about that?

[Krummhorn]

I see lots of discussion on how inhumane the death penalty is and how it "violates" human rights ... but how about the human rights of the victims?

The victims who got murdered had no trial, had no jail time; they were handed (mostly without even knowing) the "death penalty" and were executed without any consideration to any "approved standards" of human rights. Sounds like the criminals are being allowed to live their lives out until natural death when the victims didn't have the choice.

In my perception, the laws are doing more these days to protect the criminals than they are doing to protect the innocent. We need stiffer penalties, and those penalties need to be carried out within days ... not months or years or decades afterward.

Keeping that 74 year old Austrian geezer alive is doing him a favor ... doesn't have to worry not about continued health care, having a place to live, free meals, and other amenities lots of poor people do without. Keeping him locked up in a cellar without outside contact isn't the answer either ... he will not "learn" from his mistakes ... people like that cannot be rehabilitated, and it's a waste of our time to even try.

I best clam up before I get a nasty-gram from my boss here ...

(Disclaimer: the thoughts above are my own and do not reflect the opinions of this forum community, its staff members or the site owner.)

[Muza]

Again, Im with you till the end

[intet_at_tabe]

Up-date on the dying 19 year old Miss Kerstin Fritzl, one of the daughters of the monster Herr Josef Fritzl, from the intensive care unit at the hospital, where she has been for severel days.

According to a spokesman from the hospital yesterday afternoon at 5:45 PM:

"The chances for Miss Kerstin Fritzl to survive are very poor. She is in a coma, but her inner organs are so damaged because of the many years of imprissonment, now with the total failure of the inner organs to function at all her condition is critical and chances for survival are next to none".

According to the Austrian police:

"If Miss Kerstin Fritzl dies, the procecution will most definitely procecute her father Herr Josef Fritzl on murder. He is already accused of man slaughter on the child of his and Miss Kerstin Fritzl, the child who died shortly after birth".

[intet_at_tabe]

Again, Im with you till the end

Muza dear

Hopefully many years ahead.

[intet_at_tabe]

I see lots of discussion on how inhumane the death penalty is and how it "violates" human rights ... but how about the human rights of the victims?

The victims who got murdered had no trial, had no jail time; they were handed (mostly without even knowing) the "death penalty" and were executed without any consideration to any "approved standards" of human rights. Sounds like the criminals are being allowed to live their lives out until natural death when the victims didn't have the choice.

In my perception, the laws are doing more these days to protect the criminals than they are doing to protect the innocent. We need stiffer penalties, and those penalties need to be carried out within days ... not months or years or decades afterward.

Keeping that 74 year old Austrian geezer alive is doing him a favor ... doesn't have to worry not about continued health care, having a place to live, free meals, and other amenities lots of poor people do without. Keeping him locked up in a cellar without outside contact isn't the answer either ... he will not "learn" from his mistakes ... people like that cannot be rehabilitated, and it's a waste of our time to even try.

I best clam up before I get a nasty-gram from my boss here ...

(Disclaimer: the thoughts above are my own and do not reflect the opinions of this forum community, its staff members or the site owner.)

Master Krummhorn

Relevant question from you, but to answer this you must respect the laws of each country, which mean the answer can only be given by the Justice system of a particular country and international laws in relation to the solicitors, who from each their bench procecute or defend and the judges, who will be the ones to decide on the matter.

Public opinion, the press and individual emotions from none professional judgements based on hatred rarely give the right answer. That´s why we all must respect the laws and our legal binding system evolved form centuries within the courts.

Just think of the Nurnberg Process in Germany post the WWII towards "Crimes against humanity"? Or the former hero in American sports Mr. O.J. and his dream team of lawyers in the USA court case brought to all our homes throughout the world by TV?

Respectfully,

[Corno Dolce]

My stomach churns and growls whenever I read about that nut case Fritzl. What he did was naked radical evil. My fiancee said to me that Fritzl is criminally insane and needs to be in a psychiatric ward for the criminally insane.

[marval]

I think Fritzl probably is criminally insane, whatever the case, sometime he must have realised what he was doing. Also the wife, so scared of him she daren't say anything? or thinking rather someone else than me.

I agree Krummhorn, here in the Uk we are always told you can't interfere with the prisoner's human rights. As far as I am concerned they gave away their human rights, when they committed the crime.

It is definitely time to put the victim first, or families. The criminal did not put anyone first during the crime, so why should we put them first afterwards.

I think you have to be sure you have the right person before puting them to death, but if capital punishment does work as a deterrent, maybe it is woth thinking about.


Margaret

[intet_at_tabe]

Ms. Margaret and Muza dear and the guys.

You could be right Ms. Margaret.

The evolving story of the monster or/and perhaps criminal insane Herr Josef Fritzl, Amstetten, Austria shows he had spend 18 months in prison, convicted for the rape of a woman from the city Linz, some 40-50 kilometres from Amstetten back in 1967. Documented by the police in Linz. The same documents also show, he was suspected of another rape and for flashing in front of a child, to which he got arrested also in Linz. The woman who had been raped back in 1967, saw his picture in the Austrian news on the case, and she recognised his eyes at once: "I´ll never forget his eyes". She imidiately decided to step forward and tell her story to the Austrian News paper Krone Zeitung and the police in Amstetten.

A former tavel friend of Herr Fritzl told the police, he had travel with Herr Fritzl several times from Austria to Pattaya, Thailand. Pattaya, the center for pedophiles from all over the world in Thailand. The friend delievered a video from a beach at Pattaya to prove his statement. In the video Herr Josef Fritzl receives massage from a young boy at the beach.

The lawyer of Herr Josef Fritzl, Herr Rudolf Mayer and the procecuting public attorney have both asked the court for a test of the sanity (or the opposite) of Herr Fritzl.

The public procecuting attorney gave a press announcement yesterday saying Herr Josef Fritzl has admitted to the false imprisonment for 24 years, that he is the father of the seven children of his own daughter, that he burned the child who died. But he won´t say anything else to the police or the press.

One should not think it could be worse, and now it shows he has been to Pattaya several times and has been convicted on a rape charge as long as back to 1967 - 41 years ago. Who took care of the basement and the children all this time, while he was on holidays far from Austria???

[marval]

Yes and reading today's paper, someone asked what would have happened if Fritzl had not come back. Suppose he had had an accident and died in Thailand, what would have happened then. He was the only one, so they say that knew the number to the lock on the cellar, but as you say Intet who took care while he was away. (Mrs Fritzl perhaps?)


Margaret