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Thread: Crossing the border

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    Vice Admiral Virtuoso methodistgirl's Avatar
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    Crossing the border

    Since I said what I did in the poem thread, I'm moving my discussion
    to this one. What I have started on is a discussion and debate.
    I would still like to talk about our politics and
    the way America is treating her first natives. So join right in.


    I am still crying over what us Americans have done
    to the Native American. It's real shameful. We've pushed them as
    far west as we could so that we could have room when we all ready
    had all the room in the world here. Just like with the blacks, all we
    have shown them is our prejudgment and hate. These people have
    been here for centuries before we came over here beginning with ol'
    Chris Columbus. I consider him a pirate for the way he and his men
    made war with the natives.
    judy tooley
    Last edited by Krummhorn; May-20-2008 at 19:25. Reason: flow after move & merge

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    Rear Admiral Appassionata (Ret.) intet_at_tabe's Avatar
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    Thank you Ms. Judy so now we´re at least two, who feel a bit ashamed. I guess what you don´t know is, that some of the new settlers who came from Scandinavia - Norway, Sweden and Denmark were hard core criminals, that we did no know what to do with, so they were mixed with carpenters, fishermen, people of the agriculture world, black smiths and so on who were alowed to go to the new world.

    So the Europeans and the Scandinavians are to blame as well. Btw. Did you know that the English would sent hard core criminal prisonors from England to the almost not populated Australia, except for the native Australians, the aboriginals, for imprisonment instead of staying imprisoned in England?

    When I was a boy around 6-10 years old, and we watched the first black and white old American cowboy movies in the new invention the TV, or on sunday afternoons at the local cinema, I became - a freak - according to my male friends from the neighbourhood, because I was always on the side of the indians, against every other boy my age, who would be the cowboy character of John Wayne or Rod taylor even Eroll Flynn. Already then from childhood, I singled out to be a freak or an outcast, because I always found more empathy and sympathy for the native American indians. I remember, I was impressed they could ride a horse without the saddle, only using a blanket on the back of the horse. What I did not know at this young age of mine was, that most of the indians in the movies were actually white actors dressed up as the "savages". Of course the oprairie indians were nomads falling the steps of the great Buffalo, so they would always be close to the food.

    Since then in my childhood, I began reading a heck of alot about the great prairie indians of North America, about the Great Spirit of Manitoo, the war God of the Apache´s and everything else, I could get my hands on about the native American indians - a very proud people, significant hunters and much more friendly and sociable than often portraited by Hollywood or later American History books. I have also studied the culture of the Maya and the Aztec empires of South America, who for reasons we do not really know were great builders of buioldings, temples and places on top of these temples were thousand of native indians were sacrifized to the God of the Maya and the Aztec - the sun, as we know it today.

    One of the things most impressive to me was the respect and love the North American Indian tribes gave back to nature, never kill more animals than they could use for the tribe, clean up after evry meal, and when having killed a Buffalo for instance they always sacrifised to the God´s of the Buffalo with respect of this great animal and of course to Manitoo for the support during the hunt.

    When the first caucation whites, the new settlers arrived to the mid. western, you know Montana, North Dakota and the states around or rather south, east and west of Montana, because Canada is the border to the North of Montana, there were the total number of around 5 million indians spread in about 38 different indian tribes from coast to coast. Some of them living by the great waterfalls, some of them only on the great white plains, some of them using every stream they could fish in - and the prairie. They would fight each other for stolen horses and women, but never for the Buffalo or the great American Eagle for instance.

    We (the whites) did damage and try to erase, all of us whites, an incredible sociable race of native Americans, who often in the beginning were mostly curious and they could ride any horse like had they been born on the back of the horse. Incredible knowledge they had about every recognizable sound or smell from any animal, snake or any bug. They too in their own way studied the stars at night and they could move around during the night without a sound.

    In the year 1900, there were less than one thousand indians left out of the total 5 million native American indians when the white settlers first arrived. The tribes were cheeted every time Yellow Hair equals George C. Custer as the representative for the Great White Father in Washington changed an agreement the seventh cavelry did not keep anyways.

    Funny isn´t it? The indians were accused for scalping the white settlers, while it was the french army, who taught the indian tribes how to scalp an enemy. But they were to blame for this as well as anything else, provoked by the new settlers who stole their land and the animals they lived of. In all the American politicians in Washington changed an agreement with the tribes 127 times, and the native Americans, could only see how their "empire" the free and open great plains crumbled and crumbled every time.

    Three of my favourite films from America/Hollywood still are "Dancing with wolves" by Kevin Costner and "It´s A Good Day To Die", starring Dustin Hoffman and Fay Dunnaway and the third "Soldier Blue", some of the very few movies that actually showed the indians to be much more friendly and socialble than Hollywood and later American History books for education means mostly had shown since.

    Thank you again Ms. Judy for the beautiful poem and your beautiful soul.
    Last edited by intet_at_tabe; May-17-2008 at 19:09.
    Best regards,
    intet_at_tabe

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    Vice Admiral Virtuoso methodistgirl's Avatar
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    Intet, did you know that there just few of the tribes left in America and
    Mexico. President Bush and the rest of the government needs to shut
    up and let these people come. The Mayan and Astez believe that their
    nation is doomed so they are fleing the nation. I guess if the USA was
    in that kind of danger and we knew it we would be headed for Canada,
    Mexico, and flying to other europian nations to get away from the
    trouble ahead. I can understand the security at the border but let's not
    carry it so far that they can't come over. What I see is a little opression
    with the different races. There are some Mayan ones here in Kentucky
    and they're real cute. The tall ones are the Astez ones.
    judy tooley

  4. #4
    Rear Admiral Appassionata (Ret.) intet_at_tabe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by methodistgirl View Post
    Intet, did you know that there just few of the tribes left in America and
    Mexico. President Bush and the rest of the government needs to shut
    up and let these people come. The Mayan and Astez believe that their
    nation is doomed so they are fleing the nation. I guess if the USA was
    in that kind of danger and we knew it we would be headed for Canada,
    Mexico, and flying to other europian nations to get away from the
    trouble ahead. I can understand the security at the border but let's not
    carry it so far that they can't come over. What I see is a little opression
    with the different races. There are some Mayan ones here in Kentucky
    and they're real cute. The tall ones are the Astez ones.
    judy tooley
    Yes I do know Ms. Judy

    I can remember having read an article from a Danish News paper and whatched it as well on TV in 2006/07 when President Jr. made a five country visit to South America, supposingly to be a promotíon trip, where he was and is not the most popular person as a representative for the USA. In fact, he was almost attacked physically in Brazil and Mexico as the last of the five countries he visited, from demonstraitors on the streets and had to be protected at all times on this trip to South America, no matter where he was or in which country he visited.

    So he and the exploitation from the USA of cheap labour in Mexico throughout the 20th Century - has made him - persona non grata - in South America.

    "Funny" isn´t it the CIA behaved as terrorists thoughout the entire South America in the last half of the 20th Century, supporting Pinoche´and Allende in Chile, having sent the CIA and the Navy Seals to El Salvador, Nicaragua to assassin bishop Romero and any non-pro-american politician inside a church or the parliament in a country, only because bishop Romero and South American politicians in generel talked about social welfare programs, also including the indians of South America. The USA ambassador to Panama spoke disillutioned to the international press, before he was demanded back to the USA in the 1980´s:

    "We the USA came here to democratise South America and Panama, but ended up making drugs deals with Noriega, and slaughtering thousands of people throughout South America in covered-up military operations".

    Colonyism and imperialism are two sides of the same coin, which never in the history of the human beings have supported the native population. Not in Africa, not in South America, not the indians of North America and certainly not in the Middle East, which turned into a barrel of powder in 1948, when the U.N. upon the veto from the USA declared the state of Israel as a fact - No one asked the Arabian countries close to the Sinai inseln about their opinion about the declaration of Israel in, what had been Arabian territory and muslim religious countries for more than 2000 years.

    I believe they should have given Cuba to the jewes, much closer to the USA. We might not even have had the Cuban-crises in the beginning of the 1960´s.
    Last edited by intet_at_tabe; May-19-2008 at 08:40.
    Best regards,
    intet_at_tabe

  5. #5
    Vice Admiral Virtuoso methodistgirl's Avatar
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    That is so true Intet. Like they say what goes around comes around.
    Because we have as much or more of a nuclear threat as we did with
    just the russians. Now every nation on the planet has a bomb waiting
    and pointed right for us which is scary. Right now we could use a new
    president that will do just like Reagan did with russia and stop some of
    this threat or we are going to be doomed someday over their anger
    toward us.
    judy tooley

  6. #6
    Rear Admiral Appassionata (Ret.) intet_at_tabe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by methodistgirl View Post
    That is so true Intet. Like they say what goes around comes around.
    Because we have as much or more of a nuclear threat as we did with
    just the russians. Now every nation on the planet has a bomb waiting
    and pointed right for us which is scary. Right now we could use a new
    president that will do just like Reagan did with russia and stop some of
    this threat or we are going to be doomed someday over their anger
    toward us.
    judy tooley
    Ms. Judy

    Pakistan and India have the nukes, and they are certainly not the most steady of countries. They have fought each other on the province of Kashmir for decades. Iran want to have it, and wether we will teach them or not, they will certainly get it, if we the caucation white race keep up the provocations. North Korea, one of the most tyrant countries of all, with the Il Sung family on top, could scare even the already dead.

    One year prior to 9/11 the Bush family in Texas had an agreement with the CIA (without the US Congress knowing anything about it) and local military officers within Iraq to have Saddam Hussein and his brother assassined in one of his own palaces. Suddenly the whole plan, according to a former CIA operative, the CIA-leader of this plan, was aboarded?

    I can´t remember his name, he was sacked from the CIA and wrote a book later on about how the CIA has infiltrated every country in the Middle East since the WWII. He said in his conclusion of the USA as the only SUPER power left on this planet in his book:

    "America always creates it´s own enemies, always has always will".

    Remember two or three years ago, when The White House suddenly came with the very desturbing news, that the state of Niger in Africa had refined plutonium in order, meant for Iraq to produce a nuke. Fear again spread in the USA and the rest of the world. This statement soon showed to be a pure fabrication from The White House, like so many other "predictions" or "facts" over the years.

    IMHO, we as the caucation white race has dominated and forced the entire world throughout the past 2000 years in all aspects of human life, so I do not really find it as a mystery that most other countries outside the western world are pritty fed up with the caucation white race.
    Last edited by intet_at_tabe; May-20-2008 at 14:02.
    Best regards,
    intet_at_tabe

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    Vice Admiral Virtuoso methodistgirl's Avatar
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    I hope who gets to be president this time whether it be democratic or
    republician is a good one who will stop this hatred and streighten up
    this country. Like I said we need to let the Mexican people come on
    over. They might be the key to improving our economy. If they come
    over illegal then we can legalize them with some kind of proof paper
    or something to help them stay. They are good workers and will do
    what many of us wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole. They don't mind
    as long as they can do the work. That's one of the ten commandments.
    Love your neighbor as yourself. Mexico and Canada is our neighbors
    and we should be a little more compasionate with them. The economy
    in Mexico is close to being dead comparing to ours. Plus the Mexican
    people who are coming over here are fleing the country because of
    fear of their future. I think I know why people feel like they do toward
    the Mexicans. Most of them or probably simply all of them are Native
    americans. They are Mayans, Astez,and Ican. That's the problem.
    Canada got a bum rap because they didn't want to go to war with us
    because of a peace treaty. I don't blame them one bit. That would
    have been breaking the law and they knew it even France.
    judy tooley

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    Administrator Krummhorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by methodistgirl View Post
    I hope who gets to be president this time whether it be democratic or republician is a good one who will stop this hatred and streighten up this country. Like I said we need to let the Mexican people come on over. They might be the key to improving our economy.
    I disagree ... how is adding even more homeless and starving people going to help our economy? Our economy is hurting enough. I believe in "brotherly love" but there has to be a breaking point or we, as a country, will wind up just like the impoverished countries in the other parts of the world. Those countries must help their own first, too.

    We already have thousands of homeless and starving people who are in this country legally that we can't yet feed or care for.

    Quote Originally Posted by methodistgirl View Post
    If they come over illegal then we can legalize them with some kind of proof paper or something to help them stay. They are good workers and will do what many of us wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole. They don't mind as long as they can do the work.
    I ask you: If you or I went to their country illegally, would we be unconditionally accepted, given citizenship, food, clothing, jobs, housing, and free medical care? I seriously doubt it.

    Quote Originally Posted by methodistgirl View Post
    Mexico and Canada is our neighbors and we should be a little more compasionate with them. The economy in Mexico is close to being dead comparing to ours.
    We are on friendly terms with both Canada and Mexico. It's Mexico that doesn't want our help, but yet they do nothing to help their own ... their President probably lives in the lap of the greatest luxury - think he would share this wealth with his poor citizens? Brotherly love?

    Quote Originally Posted by methodistgirl View Post
    Plus the Mexican people who are coming over here are fleeing the country because of fear of their future.
    And people aren't leaving this country (US) with the same fears? Unless Congress, the Senate, and all the Democrats & Republicans unite together soon to solve OUR problems, there isn't much future left here in this country. That unification, "brotherly love" as it were, isn't going to happen - that's plain sight reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by methodistgirl View Post
    I think I know why people feel like they do toward the Mexicans. Most of them or probably simply all of them are Native Americans. They are Mayans, Astez,and Ican. That's the problem.
    Oooook ... since the Mexicans are Native Americans, Mayan, Aztec and Inca, that's what the problem is? Ok ... glad that matter is solved - it's so crystal clear now ...

    There is no "hatred" of the Mexican National people. Living in a state that borders (65 miles South) we have a large influx of illegals. They can apply for a visa at any time ... they are well aware of the rules and laws. Why then did they pack 23 people into a normal sized station wagon and drive 80 mph up the freeway, crash and roll and kill innocent people ... their OWN people? This actually happened in this state about a month ago ... and then they said "we weren't doing anything wrong!" Right

    The laws are the same for those from Mexico, as they are for people from Europe, Asia or anywhere else in the world ... if you are here illegally, you'll get deported. Nobody has singled out the Mexican Nationals. The government of Mexico needs to help their own just as the United States needs to help its own, too, something that we (as a nation) are sadly failing to do.

    I agree about the jobs that others will take that some of us won't ... that's our own internal problem and I personally blame the trade unions for setting the standard when they say "by gawd, we is gonna make $25 per hour or we gonna strike that muther friggin company and shut them down!" That "no matter what" mentality doesn't work anymore, and until the American worker and its unions realize it, nothing is going to change. Push comes to shove and I bet any American worker would take the most menial tasked job if it means putting bread on the table.

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    Rear Admiral Appassionata Muza's Avatar
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    I very much agree with Krummhorn, he said it all perfectly clear and he addressed every single bit that i wanted to address.

    Come on Judy, you sound a little ridiculous when you just flat out say "Everybody is hating on these people just because they are indians, Im the only person thats not" - thats what you sound like. Why is it that you assume so? Why do you think everybody hates them, and why do you think everybody hates them specifically for that reason?

    You also cant forget basic politics. Why does the Bush and the government need to shut up and just do something - he is the president on this country, and i believe he is doing the best he can for the better of this country. Just like Krummhorn said, should we just start letting everybody who wants to come in in? Everybody is not gonna fit you know. I respect these indiginous tribes, I am very much with you guys when you say that white people totally cheated them out of their land, killed off a lot of them, all that stuff- I agree. And I sympathise with them, but forgive me about thinking about myself, my family, and my country first.
    Why waste money on psychotherapy when you can listen to the B Minor Mass? ~Michael Torke

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    Vice Admiral Virtuoso methodistgirl's Avatar
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    I'm sorry. I let my emotions get hold of me and I'm too soft hearted
    for my own good sometimes and a little stuborn.
    judy tooley

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    Rear Admiral Appassionata Muza's Avatar
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    no, please dont be sorry, thats the last thing i wanted to make you - sorry . I think the majority of people do understand that white people did indigenous populations wrong, just as they once did Africans wrong, when they brought them in for the purposes of trading. They do, but at the same time, you cannot, as a country, live in a past, live with a constant guilt.
    Why waste money on psychotherapy when you can listen to the B Minor Mass? ~Michael Torke

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    Admiral Honkenwheezenpooferspieler Corno Dolce's Avatar
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    When the two main political parties in the USA give-up on their duty of enforcing Immigration and Border Security laws then its time to boot out the whole lot of them from office, be they Democrat or Republican and tried for Treason. Time has come for Americans from sea to shining sea to reclaim and liberate their country from the demoniacal and tyrannical clutches of Washington D.C.
    *If a man wants God to hear his prayer quickly, then before he prays for anything else, even his own soul, when he stands and stretches out his hands towards God, he must pray with all his heart for his enemies. Through this action God will hear everything that he asks* -Abba Zeno-

    *Protagoras: "Truth is subjective. What is true for you, and what is true for me, is true for me. Your opinion is true by virtue of its being your opinion."

    *Socrates: "My opinion is: Truth is absolute, not opinion, and that you are in absolute error. Since this is my opinion, then according to your philosophy you must grant that it is true."

    "Improvisational Art": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSxVO3EoCRM

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    Vice Admiral Virtuoso methodistgirl's Avatar
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    Thanks Corno and Margaret. I needed that.
    judy tooley

  14. #14
    Rear Admiral Appassionata (Ret.) intet_at_tabe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by methodistgirl View Post
    Thanks Corno and Margaret. I needed that.
    judy tooley
    Ms. Judy

    To some extend, I do agree with you. US policies for decades towards South America and the hispanic population, have been to buy cheep labour and to exploid women in generel for prostitution.

    Not long ago, about two years or so, all the illegal immigrants 13 million of them from South America demonstrated and protested against the rules of visa and the right to get a green card and a passport as ordinary naturalised americans. Like the japanese-americans, the chinese-americans, the italian-americans have had for years, when hispanics actually work every day on huge farms of agriculture in the southern USA for 1/5 of minimum wages - invited by these plantation owners.

    Do any of you guys think that plantation owners where oranges or lemons for instance are cultured and harwested, would have any interests whatsoever in suddenly paying minimum wages to hispanichs, if they all at one time became naturalised americans. It would be an increase of 500-700 percent per hour to every foreign worker from South America.

    As it is now, the plantation owners keep the slavery of cheep labour intact. They house the workers and they get food and water, plus a few dollars, which are not reported to the US IRS, equals what a family in the Third World countries have to survive poer day.

    So beside the 47 million unemployed, houseless naturalised Americans - The gropu titled the so called Lazy America, who have been born in the USA and whose family relatives can be tracked five generations back as natural Americans like everybody else, the government of the USA has this group of 13 million hispanic people, and the question is - What to do with them? Though all these people have been invited to work the huge farms in the south - to become a part of the American Dream, which of course they were never intended to be.

    Look to Wiki on slavery going back to the old testament (Exodus), and then you´ll see it never ended in America, it only changed it´s form, shape and aim from the african americans to the mexicans and every other hispanic and to sex slavery these years.

    Remember the novel by John Steinbeck "Grapes of Wrath", where JS includes hispanics into slavery in the agriculture world since the year 1900 - and it´s still going on.
    Last edited by intet_at_tabe; May-21-2008 at 11:56.
    Best regards,
    intet_at_tabe

  15. #15
    Vice Admiral Virtuoso methodistgirl's Avatar
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    I know of one mexican family that lives here in Madisonville. They are
    very successful with their resturant business called El Basero. Their
    mexican resturant is a real delight when you go there for lunch. Unlike
    Taco Bell, they use roast beef to make the taco salad and ingredients
    that I never heard of which taste like heaven in your mouth. I have
    tried the mexican chocolate and I just love it. It taste like hot cocoa
    with cinnamon. These guys are not doing cheep labor. The resturant
    business can be tough and not so cheep. This family started out with
    nothing but the poverty they came with. Now they are a success.
    I can tell which ones are Mayan and which ones are not.
    The short ones are the Mayan mexicans because they
    are short. The Astez are the tall and big ones.
    judy tooley

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